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Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

patrick jane

patrick jane

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Arthur Brain said:
How "Evil" were Adam and Eve exactly? Why on earth should an indiscretion on their part condemn all humanity and all other living things as well?
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Any sin at all cannot enter the presence of God. Since we are all sinners, we need a Savior, that's Jesus Christ. The sins of the world were paid for so that we CAN enter into His presence in the end. Belief is the key. We are justified by faith.

Revelation 21:4-6 KJV - [FONT=&quot]And [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.[/FONT]
 
intojoy

intojoy

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Arthur Brain said:
Dude, do us both a favor and don't bother responding to the thread anymore. I've zero respect for your "opinions" and likely vice versa. Chances are you'll crass out before long anyway.
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No, this is good. It proves my theology bro. Because if an unbeliever can read scripture literally and understand it literally, the MADists doctrine goes up in smoke. So what was your problem my son? Was it what scripture clearly said or was it what it said?


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Stripe

Stripe

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intojoy said:
No, this is good. It proves my theology bro. Because if an unbeliever can read scripture literally and understand it literally, the MADists doctrine goes up in smoke. So what was your problem my son? Was it what scripture clearly said or was it what it said? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Psst. Brain hates the Bible.
 
WatchmanOnTheWall

WatchmanOnTheWall

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Arthur Brain said:
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
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So? You think that's unfair? That's because you do not know what really happened and is happening but then most people don't.
 
C

chair

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The Genesis story does not say that death entered the world because of the fruit eating incident. Certainly not death for animals.

What happens is that God threatens punishment, and doesn't carry out the threat. Maybe poor parenting on His part, but then again what did He think would happen if He left his children alone with the Forbidden Tree?

One can't help wondering if the later idea that Death and Suffering entered the world because one man ate a fruit had its source in the parallel Greek story of Pandora's box.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Arthur Brain said:
Pain is only a 'good' thing when it can be controlled and not so acute as to be excruciating where any otherwise logical process is pretty much rendered redundant because of the suffering. To put it another way, if you're in agony what use is the pain to you if you can do nothing about it and/or hindered because of it?
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Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 11-29.

When I think of suffering, there is pain and evil and also mental anguish like anguish of soul. What do you mean by suffering?

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jacob

Jacob

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chair said:
The Genesis story does not say that death entered the world because of the fruit eating incident. Certainly not death for animals.

What happens is that God threatens punishment, and doesn't carry out the threat. Maybe poor parenting on His part, but then again what did He think would happen if He left his children alone with the Forbidden Tree?

One can't help wondering if the later idea that Death and Suffering entered the world because one man ate a fruit had its source in the parallel Greek story of Pandora's box.
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Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 11-29.

Well I do not know about that, but I do believe that the consequence or penalty or punishment for transgressing God's commandment in disobedience, that they did disobey, did result in death. Some say that there was a spiritual death with the fall. For it must have been that day. Or that they would have never died had they not done so. That there was a day when they died because of their sin. Then was it the same 'day', somehow? :) That's all that I can think of about this right now.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 11-29.

When I think of suffering, there is pain and evil and also mental anguish like anguish of soul. What do you mean by suffering?

Shalom.

Jacob
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Suffering doesn't necessarily involve angst or evil of any sort. It can take different forms, physical, mental, emotional.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Arthur Brain said:
Suffering doesn't necessarily involve angst or evil of any sort. It can take different forms, physical, mental, emotional.
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Correct.

But would there be no suffering if there had been no sin by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

Shalom.

Jacob
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Arthur Brain said:
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
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If not all creation, then the Earth for sure.
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Stripe said:
Yep. You hate what it says. Another issue is that you don't know what it says.
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Nope. As before, little regard for pompous religious zealots who arrogantly think they have a "proper understanding" and crackpot doctrines does not equate to a hatred of the bible Stipe. Get a grip.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Arthur Brain said:
Well, man didn't create pain or suffering though he can certainly be a big cause of it.
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We have to define or describe suffering when we say that man didn't create pain or suffering though he can certainly be a big cause of it.

The question is if suffering is a result of the fall and attributed to God or man. Is it the consequence of man's disobedience? Did man bring it about for himself?

Shalom.

Jacob
 
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