• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
 
Jacob

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Arthur Brain said:
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
Click to expand...

Shalom.

Today is Shlishli, 11-28. It is Yom, Day. These things are true until sundown. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington.

Do you believe that death is the result of sin, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and is this (just) death for man, Adam and Eve, mankind?

Shalom.

Jacob
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Arthur Brain said:
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
Click to expand...

Sin entered the world.

Do you think that wouldn't have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned?

I submit it's a natural consequence of giving man the ability to choose evil over good.
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Sin entered the world.

Do you think that wouldn't have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned?

I submit it's a natural consequence of giving man the ability to choose evil over good.
Click to expand...

I think it was inevitable that anyone would fail to be perfect no matter what their names. You aren't perfect, I'm not and neither is anyone else, right? The point is, why does the whole of creation have to suffer because of this supposed 'fall' as some seem to suggest?
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

Today is Shlishli, 11-28. It is Yom, Day. These things are true until sundown. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington.

Do you believe that death is the result of sin, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and is this (just) death for man, Adam and Eve, mankind?

Shalom.

Jacob
Click to expand...

I don't believe in anything so literal.
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth (the whole world, the entire world) and everything in it?

Shalom.

Jacob
Click to expand...

For the purposes here, it really doesn't matter what I believe. I'd sooner not sidetrack the thread this early and rather get opinions as regards the OP.
 
Jacob

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Arthur Brain said:
For the purposes here, it really doesn't matter what I believe. I'd sooner not sidetrack the thread this early and rather get opinions as regards the OP.
Click to expand...

I understand. But if man was not punished with death, as God promised, for disobeying God then how would it even be possible for all of creation to suffer as the result of man's sin? I suppose we could theorize what the world would look like if man had not sinned. The point is that some people believe that God foreknew or predestined man to fall. In regard to the Garden of Eden there are other views than these or that God designed all of creation to suffer as a result of the fall, from the beginning, or as a result of or in the fall. The question is are we going to believe what the Bible says? And, we should. If you do not believe the Bible you will out-theorize God's Word from the beginning. Begin with the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The rest of your understanding will follow. Animals, plants, what do you believe is suffering? Do you believe in pain? Did Adam and Eve die as a result of their sin? What did it mean for death to be the result of their sin, either for themselves, all mankind, or all of creation?

Shalom.

Jacob
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Arthur Brain said:
I think it was inevitable that anyone would fail to be perfect no matter what their names. You aren't perfect, I'm not and neither is anyone else, right? The point is, why does the whole of creation have to suffer because of this supposed 'fall' as some seem to suggest?
Click to expand...

Because sin affects everything. The earth is exploited by greed and lust. Greedy men kill all the buffalo for their hides, for example. Are we wise stewards?
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Jacob said:
I understand. But if man was not punished with death, as God promised, for disobeying God then how would it even be possible for all of creation to suffer as the result of man's sin? I suppose we could theorize what the world would look like if man had not sinned. The point is that some people believe that God foreknew or predestined man to fall. In regard to the Garden of Eden there are other views than these or that God designed all of creation to suffer as a result of the fall, from the beginning, or as a result of or in the fall. The question is are we going to believe what the Bible says? And, we should. If you do not believe the Bible you will out-theorize God's Word from the beginning. Begin with the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The rest of your understanding will follow. Animals, plants, what do you believe is suffering? Do you believe in pain? Did Adam and Eve die as a result of their sin? What did it mean for death to be the result of their sin, either for themselves, all mankind, or all of creation?

Shalom.

Jacob
Click to expand...

Um, in all seriousness, how could an omnipotent God not foresee fallibility in a creation such as man? Did Adam have the capability to feel pain or suffering before he ate 'the apple'?

Do I "believe" in pain, or suffering? Are you for real?

If you have the 'standard' capacity for feeling pain then you'll have experienced it enough times, physically at the very least.
 
Last edited:
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Because sin affects everything. The earth is exploited by greed and lust. Greedy men kill all the buffalo for their hides, for example. Are we wise stewards?
Click to expand...

Sin only applies to man doesn't it? How does that affect the myriad lifeforms that prey on each other when in a 'perfect world' none of that need take place?

Oh, and to add, no, man isn't a 'wise steward' overall and causes more suffering to himself and other lifeforms on the planet than anything else.
 
Jacob

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Arthur Brain said:
Um, in all seriousness, how could an omnipotent God not foresee fallibility in a creation such as man? Did Adam have the capability to feel pain or suffering before he eat 'the apple'?

Do I "believe" in pain, or suffering? Are you for real?

If you have the 'standard' capacity for feeling pain then you'll have experienced it enough times, physically at the very least.
Click to expand...

Shalom.

Correct.

Because pain is a good thing if you experience it. It is an indicator that something is wrong. Tactile senses or the tactile sense is important. I do not know if anything was wrong before the sin of Adam and Eve and the fall. Certainly Adam (and Eve) experienced life as God had created it for them to be experienced. The question now is (oh, I don't know that it was an apple) about God foreseeing (His ability to do so, rather than strict determinism for example) and man's free will. Certainly man has a will, but is it free or bound? Since a free will choice exists what does that say for some people choosing to sin or do evil? Is free will simply a voluntary choice? What is all involved in doing the right thing? That God has instructed you and allowed you to do so to His glory. So we should not choose to do otherwise. Did God give man a choice or did man choose to go against God's will and instruction?

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

Correct.

Because pain is a good thing if you experience it. It is an indicator that something is wrong. Tactile senses or the tactile sense is important. I do not know if anything was wrong before the sin of Adam and Eve and the fall. Certainly Adam (and Eve) experienced life as God had created it for them to be experienced. The question now is (oh, I don't know that it was an apple) about God foreseeing (His ability to do so, rather than strict determinism for example) and man's free will. Certainly man has a will, but is it free or bound? Since a free will choice exists what does that say for some people choosing to sin or do evil? Is free will simply a voluntary choice? What is all involved in doing the right thing? That God has instructed you and allowed you to do so to His glory. So we should not choose to do otherwise. Did God give man a choice or did man choose to go against God's will and instruction?

Shalom.

Jacob
Click to expand...

Pain is only a 'good' thing when it can be controlled and not so acute as to be excruciating where any otherwise logical process is pretty much rendered redundant because of the suffering. To put it another way, if you're in agony what use is the pain to you if you can do nothing about it and/or hindered because of it?
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Arthur Brain said:
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
Click to expand...
Genesis chapter 3 - KJV - [FONT=&quot]Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.[/FONT]
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
patrick jane said:
Animals don't know the difference between right and wrong. We are made in the image of God, we're not animals. Sorry buddy.
Click to expand...

By that argument, why are they designed to feel pain and suffering because of 'man's fall'? Don't kid yourself either PJ. A lot of your reactions to any number of things are pure instinct just like the nearest dog.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top