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Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

ttruscott

Well-known member
Sin only applies to man doesn't it?

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle / cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
implies that the other animals were cunning also albeit less so. Even the serpent's curse carries this implication: 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,“Cursed are you ABOVE all livestock and all wild animals! implying they got cursed less.

Also it is written that the flood was a judgement on the violence and evil of man,
Gen 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. yet Gen 6:7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” How can the animals and birds be judged along with mankind unless as Gen 3:1 implied, they are sinful also?
 

Zeke

Well-known member
So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?

No! it's a story wrote in symbology and has nothing to do with history.

Iam inline with Alvin Boyd Kuhn, The seventh chapter of Romans St. Paul speaks in such clear fashion of theological sin and death as to leave no room for argument as to what he connotes by his use of the terms thus so closely linked. By incarnation we came under the Law, begins the Apostle. Under the Law we developed sin, which was our violation of law while we were yet ignorant children (as expounded further in Galatians iv.) Then by sin came death. The whole sequence is the "cycle of necessity", as Greek philosophy called it, or the periodical descent of soul into the lower worlds for its cycles of experience, which bring it "under the law", give it the consciousness of good and evil, or the sense of "sin", and subject it to a bondage to the flesh. As pre-human animals we lived without Law, says Paul. Hear his words: "I lived at one time without Law myself, but when the command came home to me, sin sprang to life, and I died; the command that meant life proved death to me. The command gave an impulse to sin, sin beguiled me and used the command to kill me. . . . Sin resulted in death for me by making use of this good thing. The interests of the flesh meant death. . . ." Here are words of unmistakable meaning: the command that meant life to us proved to be, theologically, our death. Had scholar�s known Paul�s background of Greek philosophy, they would have known that he was discoursing on death as the incarnation of the soul in mortal body. The Law (appropriately spelled by Moffatt with a capital L) here spoken of, which is so large a feature in Paul�s theology, and which has been so crassly misunderstood by interpreters in Christendom, is that great ordinance of Nature which requires every form of unfolding life to be buried periodically in the soil of the kingdom below it, take root there, and out of a union with its elements, bring to birth the new generation of its own life. It is the Great Breath of Brahm, ceaselessly repeated. Cosmically it is the birth and death of universes; for man it is his continuing rebirth in human form till perfection or godhead is attained. The language of St. Paul in speaking of it, perhaps mutilated by hostile Christian copyists, must ever remain mystifying until for "death" one reads "incarnation". Under this touch a flood of sublime sense is at once released upon the passages.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
No! it's a story wrote in symbology and has nothing to do with history.

Iam inline with Alvin Boyd Kuhn, The seventh chapter of Romans St. Paul speaks in such clear fashion of theological sin and death as to leave no room for argument as to what he connotes by his use of the terms thus so closely linked. By incarnation we came under the Law, begins the Apostle. Under the Law we developed sin, which was our violation of law while we were yet ignorant children (as expounded further in Galatians iv.) Then by sin came death. The whole sequence is the "cycle of necessity", as Greek philosophy called it, or the periodical descent of soul into the lower worlds for its cycles of experience, which bring it "under the law", give it the consciousness of good and evil, or the sense of "sin", and subject it to a bondage to the flesh. As pre-human animals we lived without Law, says Paul. Hear his words: "I lived at one time without Law myself, but when the command came home to me, sin sprang to life, and I died; the command that meant life proved death to me. The command gave an impulse to sin, sin beguiled me and used the command to kill me. . . . Sin resulted in death for me by making use of this good thing. The interests of the flesh meant death. . . ." Here are words of unmistakable meaning: the command that meant life to us proved to be, theologically, our death. Had scholar�s known Paul�s background of Greek philosophy, they would have known that he was discoursing on death as the incarnation of the soul in mortal body. The Law (appropriately spelled by Moffatt with a capital L) here spoken of, which is so large a feature in Paul�s theology, and which has been so crassly misunderstood by interpreters in Christendom, is that great ordinance of Nature which requires every form of unfolding life to be buried periodically in the soil of the kingdom below it, take root there, and out of a union with its elements, bring to birth the new generation of its own life. It is the Great Breath of Brahm, ceaselessly repeated. Cosmically it is the birth and death of universes; for man it is his continuing rebirth in human form till perfection or godhead is attained. The language of St. Paul in speaking of it, perhaps mutilated by hostile Christian copyists, must ever remain mystifying until for "death" one reads "incarnation". Under this touch a flood of sublime sense is at once released upon the passages.

Ya'll been smokin' a bit too much weed there young feller!

:BillyBob:
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Ya'll been smokin' a bit too much weed there young feller!

:BillyBob:

Na, just couldn't swallow the dead letters anymore pops, now your drug causes ongoing traditional hallucination that twist emotion and mind to accept human sacrifice for our Spiritual Father that judges no man John 5:22, Psalms 40:6, houston we have a mental disconnect send the deprogrammers pronto to the base at Mt Sinai, patience under powerful hypnosis, symptoms insanity babbling about talking serpents and spare ribs turning into sweet little sixteen mother of all living who some how gave birth while still a spare rib in Gen one yet things were living before her arrival , Galatians 4:24,Luke 17:20-21, Proverbs 1:6, Psalms 78:2 etc...
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Well, I sure won't be asking anyone to repent of raping their own siblings Stipe, without a singular good cause. You'll recall the context of this, right, in regards to earlier? Every little word etc?

But he his so nice that gives him merit don't ya think, we can overlook insanity and bring some warm milk for him to sip on.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Which "hell" would that be AMR? What version, let alone what the 'lake of fire' actually is when 'hades' is cast into it along with "death"? If there's a monstrous deity out there that set out things whereby life would suffer interminably throughout eternity then hey, I don't expect such to show mercy regardless if I 'tow the line' or not. You, on the other hand (along with others of similar ilk) have scant regard for anybody's pain and torment as long as it isn't yours. You call my position 'slinging mud' or the like. No. it's just forthright honesty. Your belief system is repugnant and your callous disregard for anyone who isn't part of your "saved" group amid your pontificating intellectualism is sickening.





Yes, I consider you coldly detached on the matter as you talk about torments and sufferings as if they're part of some intellectual exercise that you, yourself will obviously be spared from and blandly recite the pain of others as if from a textbook. You are far from the only one on here to do that to be fair but that only underlines how insidious certain religious beliefs and doctrines can rob people of simple, basic compassion and understanding. Ultimately love.

Amr is a stickler for upper crust religious behavior, but he would certainly put Jesus on his ignore list of non acceptable mannerisms Matt 23:13.
 
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