Creation vs. Evolution

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Daft_Dave,

How's it going? It's been half a year!! Hope that NYC was pleasant this summer. Ah, the humidity though! I'm sure Central Park was nice and Washington Square. I used to live on 51st Ave. near Ave. of the Americas. I'd walk back and forth to ABC-TV, where I worked for six months, then got a promotion, but quit instead 'cause I missed my family back in MI too much. Oh well. They didn't pay that great anyway.

Well, don't let anyone scare you away Dave. You have every right to expound your beliefs.

Praise God and Jesus,

Michael

 

[DFT_Dave]

How about humans?

The problem of mutations is that they are a break down in DNA, the break down may not be harmful.

Many mutations are not harmful per se, they don't end your life, though they may shorten it, they just don't create new features.

You're examples demonstrate how a mutation causes a different effect but not the formation of a new feature.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Hi Michael, it's good to be back.

It's DFT Dave not Daft Dave! : )

--DFT Dave

 

[MichaelCadry]

Oh DFT_Dave,

I'm so very sorry. Forgive me. I was thinking of something everyone was calling you and messed up. Will you be able to stay all winter?? I see that you are a Lifetime Member. That's awesome. I became one too about a month ago. MarkS and I have been making quite a bit of headway on this Evolution is NOT true subject. Just go back and read a couple pages. You can slap them silly with the truth and they still come back with the same ol' stuff, 'cause it's ALL that they KNOW. Otherwise, they don't have anything to say, except to deny Mark and I, and anyone who says that evolution is false.

God Bless You Tons,

Michael

 

[alwight]

If Speciation has never been observed Occurring, then the Theory of Evolution (as a means by which all the Various Creatures we share this Planet with), is not the Way All the Animals Came to be.

If Speciation was the Way Animals became Different Forms/Kinds, there would be Evidence of it still happening throughout the World; Given there are Currently so many Different Species of Animals.

There have been many more species than exist today. Ring species are observable evidence that speciation is going on right now, while genetic evidence is observable evidence of shared common ancestry of different species.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

There are perhaps 8.7 million species alive today while: " it is estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110823180459.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction

:think:
That's perhaps nine billion species that have ever existed? Wow! :shocked:

Dave's Right; Mutation is always a Destructive Force, causing Genetic Disorders, which are Variants from the More Potent Original Genome.

What exactly is it that that makes a beneficial adaption impossible if random mutation could mean anything? Harmful mutations would surely be much less selectable, even if they didn't already rule out being natural selected.

Sickle cell disease is a group of disorders that affects hemoglobin, the molecule in red blood cells that delivers oxygen to cells throughout the body.

But Sickle cell anaemia is an excellent example of how what may be beneficial or harmful has no firm basis, but is simply evolution in action.
Sickle cell in DNA is arguably both harmful and beneficial at the same time.
Those individuals with a sickle cell likelihood within their blood have a natural resistance to malaria. Evolution has selected for those with sickle cell coding only in areas where malaria proliferates, despite the down sides, a least worst choice.
Sickle cell is just more evidence of adaptions regardless of whether we choose to call them beneficial or harmful from our point of view. Those with sickle cell in their DNA whether expressed or not simply do better than those who don't in areas with malaria.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...l-carriers-fend-off-malaria.html#.VHMFdJVyaCg

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

Another Wrong Answer Is;

Ring species are observable evidence that speciation is going on, right now.

From the Wiki Article on Ring Species;

Problem With Definition

"Ring species also present an interesting case of the species problem, for those who seek to divide the living world into discrete species. After all, all that distinguishes a ring species from two separate species is the existence of the connecting populations - if enough of the connecting populations within the ring perish to sever the breeding connection, the ring species' distal populations will be recognized as two distinct species.

The problem, then, is whether to quantify the whole ring as a single species (despite the fact that not all individuals can interbreed) or to classify each population as a distinct species (despite the fact that it can interbreed with its near neighbours). Ring species illustrate that the species concept is not as clear-cut as it is often thought to be."

=M=

Ring Species are simply species which have been separated by Distance, not by Genetic Mutation.

In Other Words; the Ring Species can all Interbreed in Captivity, or Though Artificial Insemination; The only thing keeping them from Interbreeding is the Distance, and other Natural Obstacles, not their Genes.

Species - A Group of Animals, which are Capable of Interbreeding.

Evolutionist Biologists would love to remove that phrase, "Which Are Capable of Interbreeding", or change it to, "Which are capable of interbreeding, unless natural obstacles keep them from interbreeding".
Thus my main problem with Biologists; Constantly using undefined terms to state their Beliefs.

If you believe that Ring Species is Everything Evolutionist Biologists make it out to be; Show me an Example of A Ring Species, which cannot be Interbred using the same Techniques which have been applied in Zoos with the Giant Panda Bear. (Which by the way Artificial Insemination Positive Pregnancy Rates In Giant Panda are 60 per cent).

In the Toronto Zoo;

http://www.citynews.ca/2014/04/30/giant-panda-artificially-inseminated-at-toronto-zoo/

The Giant Panda Bear is a Great Example of what Actually happens to an Animal that becomes cut off, and Genetically Distant; They Eventually loose the Ability to Reproduce.

That's Science, you can't argue with Science.

Now's Your Chance;

Show me one Example, that a Ring's Species Farthest Connecting Animals of a Single Species, can No Longer Reproduce with one another.

Hence This;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

You probably know all this, why do you believe in Evolution?


Is there a real example of a Ring Species which has Actually been Observed in Nature; and has been tested for "Speciation", by placing the animals together in Captivity, and then through Artificial Insemination?

Oh, You know;

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

I Agree with Pretty Much Everything Else you Said, is my Biggest Thing!!!

I almost totally agree with you.

=M=

I'm a Little Shaky on your Belief of that Number of Actual Species in Existence, I guess there are a Ton if you consider Every Different Bug.

Considering the source of the Estimation... I would expect that proven with Evidence as well; lets see, how can we test that, HMMM.

Oh, I know; Lets Consult the Fossil Record; Are there anywhere 8.7 million species in the Fossil Record?

That's a good Question to answer all on it's Own; from what I understand the Fossil Record is Very Extensive, but not a Lick of Evidence for Evolution, Is that Right?

I mean, I'm sure there is, there are many more Individual Animals that have been recorded in the Fossil Record than Species, I've heard there are over 200,000 Individual Trilobite fossils alone; So, an Even better Question would be; how many Species are there, in the Fossil Record?

I know, I'll go Look, while you try and find out if Ring Species are Real. Ok? Deal?

Go... You got a Head Start, but hey Why Not!!!

So, what you seem to be claiming is this;

There are more than 1.5 million named and described species of plants and animals on Earth, and probably, many more exist, given some have gone Extinct.

Looks like your sources and Mine have Differing Beliefs; I wonder which one's right?

Know how you can tell???

https://www.google.com/search?q=How...&q=How+many+Species+are+in+the+Fossil+Record?

So, I guess what was Suggested in your article about Numbers of Species, second could be true; Given many Animals have Gone Extinct.

However, I would question that 8.7 Million Assertion.

The Bible is a Book of Inerrancy, and the Theory of Evolution is so Full of holes a Simple Pot Head like me can tell you why you are Wrong.

There it is Above, the door out of this AL, many Evolutionists have taken it so Far; Now's Your First Chance to Use it Against Me.

 

[alwight]

From the Wiki Article on Ring Species;

Problem With Definition

"Ring species also present an interesting case of the species problem, for those who seek to divide the living world into discrete species. After all, all that distinguishes a ring species from two separate species is the existence of the connecting populations - if enough of the connecting populations within the ring perish to sever the breeding connection, the ring species' distal populations will be recognized as two distinct species.

The problem, then, is whether to quantify the whole ring as a single species (despite the fact that not all individuals can interbreed) or to classify each population as a distinct species (despite the fact that it can interbreed with its near neighbours). Ring species illustrate that the species concept is not as clear-cut as it is often thought to be."

It's rather beside the point that any difficulties of defining exactly what a species is, affects whether they were all originally only one species. The fact that neighbouring populations can readily interbreed while the more isolated can't in real world situations is indeed evidence of speciation in action.

Ring Species are simply species which have been separated by Distance, not by Genetic Mutation.

In Other Words; the Ring Species can all Interbreed in Captivity, or Though Artificial Insemination; The only thing keeping them from Interbreeding is the Distance, and other Natural Obstacles, not their Genes.

You are just shooting yourself in your own foot Mark. If separated populations cannot interbreed naturally then that is evidence that they are well on their way, at least, to being definable as a separate species and a completely separate population now evolving independently.

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

I will let it Go this time AL good buddy.

=M=

Too, bad you can't see through the Lies, given there is No Proof of actual Ring Species Occurring. Which is why you spent an Hour Looking for it; and Slapped me with the "Definitions Don't Matter".

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

I will let it Go this time AL good buddy.

=M=

Too, bad you can't see through the Lies, given there is No Proof of actual Ring Species Occurring. Which is why you spent an Hour Looking for it; and Slapped me with the "Definitions Don't Matter".

You go make sure Evolution is true; by finding evidence.

I'm going to Sleep.

Oh!!!

I double Posted; Better Make it Worth it. LOL!!!

So, why don't you just come right out and say what old Dick Dawkins always says; "So, Has it come right Down to Semantics, Then?"; And avoid all confrontation with Truth.

Good Night.

One more thing; I am an American, so yes, It's Pretty late, or Early; what have you.
The colors I write with, do not represent the Colors of the American Flag; they are simply all the Colors of Metaphorical Bruises that I leave on Evolutionists when I debate them.

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

Wow, that didn't work Either; What are you all here Gawking At?

Why isn't there Proof for the Theory of Evolution being the Origin of Species?

=M=

I'm seriously going to bed now.

Dr. Cox Sings;

Really, I'm going to bed, the only reason it looks like I'm still here talking about AL and Head Mover, and Lemur and JD, and Joker Atheist, is because I'm no longer at my computer, I just left myself signed in, and you are all a bunch of Girls; If you read this far.

 

[alwight]

I will let it Go this time AL good buddy.

=M=

Too, bad you can't see through the Lies, given there is No Proof of actual Ring Species Occurring. Which is why you spent an Hour Looking for it; and Slapped me with the "Definitions Don't Matter".

You go make sure Evolution is true; by finding evidence.

But it isn't about proof Mark, it's about evidence and whether or not it is reasonably convincing to me personally and others, along with all the other evidence that's available.
You otoh seem to reject such science and evidence but nevertheless do find the musings of ancient middle eastern goat herders extremely convincing for reasons I can't fathom. :liberals:

So, why don't you just come right out and say what old Dick Dawkins always says; "So, Has it come right Down to Semantics, Then?"; And avoid all confrontation with Truth.

Ah you must mean the great Professor Clinton Richard Dawkins, my hero, a fine and noble chap full of boundless academic skills, who leads us all away from the darkness of religious ignorance, to the sunny uplands of naturalistic and scientific truth, to a new dawn for humanity, where superstitious beliefs are put to rest, to a new age of intellectual enlightenment..... :angrymob:

(...better stop before the angry mob gets me.)

 

[DFT_Dave]

But Sickle cell anaemia is an excellent example of how what may be beneficial or harmful has no firm basis, but is simply evolution in action.
Sickle cell in DNA is arguably both harmful and beneficial at the same time.
Those individuals with a sickle cell likelihood within their blood have a natural resistance to malaria. Evolution has selected for those with sickle cell coding only in areas where malaria proliferates, despite the down sides, a least worst choice.
Sickle cell is just more evidence of adaptions regardless of whether we choose to call them beneficial or harmful from our point of view. Those with sickle cell in their DNA whether expressed or not simply do better than those who don't in areas with malaria.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...l-carriers-fend-off-malaria.html#.VHMFdJVyaCg

You're examples demonstrate how a mutation causes a different effect but not the formation of a new feature.

How does the mutation, Sickle cell, form a new feature, what does it create? Are those who have it evolving?

--Dave

 

[The Barbarian]

The problem of mutations is that they are a break down in DNA

No, that's wrong. Nothing broke down. Still DNA. Just a change that made it more likely that the human would survive.

, the break down may not be harmful.

In fact, as you just learned, it can be useful for survival.

Many mutations are not harmful per se, they don't end your life, though they may shorten it, they just don't create new features.

No, that's wrong, too. As you just learned, new features came about by mutation.

You're examples demonstrate how a mutation causes a different effect but not the formation of a new feature.

I don't think semantics will help you. Why not just adjust to the reality. Mutations can cause useful changes in organisms, and demonstrably do.

 

[The Barbarian]

You are just shooting yourself in your own foot Mark. If separated populations cannot interbreed naturally then that is evidence that they are well on their way, at least, to being definable as a separate species and a completely separate population now evolving independently.

Surprising that any creationist anywhere still denies speciation. Not only is it observed happening, creationists themselves now admit it's a fact.

 

[alwight]

You're examples demonstrate how a mutation causes a different effect but not the formation of a new feature.

How does the mutation, Sickle cell, form a new feature, what does it create? Are those who have it evolving?

--Dave

I wonder if you are approaching this from the right direction Dave?
First of all we are rather compelled to accept that the evidence shows that the humans who have the sickle cell DNA are typically originating from areas of the world where malaria is a major threat.
This seems to indicate that the human population in those malaria prone areas are better off with a faulty gene because it just happens to provide resistance.
Even a faulty gene can produce a selectable trait.

In other areas of the world there would be no selectable value for an otherwise faulty gene that causes anaemia, so it is not found.
The down side is that misshapen blood cells don't flow as easily particularly around joints.
Clearly it is evidence that random adaptions are used when they just happen to occur and provide a benefit, else typically they are discarded. Beneficial adaptions can then be adapted again to provide a better benefit.

Species can't really not evolve imo, there is no barrier or ultimate goal to adapting if it confers a benefit of some kind.

 

[alwight]

Surprising that any creationist anywhere still denies speciation. Not only is it observed happening, creationists themselves now admit it's a fact.

Yes, the word seem to take time filtering down to people who are probably not particularly keen to understand the science in the first place.

 

[noguru]

Yes, the word seem to take time filtering down to people who are probably not particularly keen to understand the science in the first place.

:rotfl:

Is that a euphemism for "idiot"?

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

I don't think semantics will help you. Why not just adjust to the reality. Mutations can cause useful changes in organisms, and demonstrably do.

True Speciation has Never Occurred, Evolution is Obviously False; there are even Examples of Speciation Not Occurring, when Considering Wolves and dogs, or tigers/Lions.

I double Posted; Better Make it Worth it. LOL!!!

So, why don't you just come right out and say what old Dick Dawkins always says; "So, Has it come right Down to Semantics, Then?"; And avoid all confrontation with Truth.

=M=

==================================

MUSIC!!!

Reasons - Built to Spill (There's Nothing Wrong With Love)

What?

No Proof for Speciation Yet?

That must be more than a Ten Hour C C C C Combo Breaker!!!

Read It, And Weep, Evols;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

Species - A Group of Animals which can Reproduce.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
I don't think semantics will help you. Why not just adjust to the reality. Mutations can cause useful changes in organisms, and demonstrably do.

Speciation has Never Occurred

Directly observed. Even creationists admit that it happens.

Evolution is Obviously False

It might be good for you to know what it is, before you decide.

Just as an aside, there is no biological law requiring that a population of two must go extinct. The odds are pretty strongly for that happening, but there are some cases where it didn't happen.