6days
New member
I think you need to fix your attributed quotes.lain:
Ya think? Ha... thanks. I corrected
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter MichaelCadry
- Start date
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Ya think? Ha... thanks. I corrected
Dear 6days,
YES, It is a WONDERFUL time to be Christian. He's returning soon. Our hearts can leap for joy and delight because we've been trodden upon enough already. Let's enjoy ourselves. Thanks again for all of YOUR HELP, 6days!!!
God Blesses The Man/Woman That Follows Him!!
Michael
YES, It is a WONDERFUL time to be Christian. He's returning soon. Our hearts can leap for joy and delight because we've been trodden upon enough already. Let's enjoy ourselves. Thanks again for all of YOUR HELP, 6days!!!
God Blesses The Man/Woman That Follows Him!!
Michael
Dear Alwight,
You and your friends are really picking out a hard time to be atheists. What are you gonna do??
Woe!!
Michael
You and your friends are really picking out a hard time to be atheists. What are you gonna do??
Woe!!
Michael
alwight
New member
I'm simply going to carry on presuming that you and your fellow Christians don't actually have anything other than a religion and wishful thinking.
The hard thing to wrap my head around is the plan of salvation. If the earth was formed billions of years ago and we along with everything evolved from one common ancestor, when did man turn away from God? I realize Genesis is a poem and therefore needs interpretation so I can see where the earth could be billions of years old.
But without God creating man from dust, and setting him apart from the rest of creation, I do not understand the fall of man and need of a savior. If there is not a point when sin entered the world and man turned away from God, the rest doesn't make sense to me.
I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, just putting forth a real dilemma in reconciling evolution and the gospel.
noguru
Well-known member
So you think the only way God can distinguish humans from the rest of Creation is by creating him from dust and not creating other things from dust?
You do not think "knowledge of good and evil" is in anyway what separates us from other animals?
Actually I find more logical problems with a literal interpretation of Genesis than I do by looking at all evidence available and taking that into consideration in an interpretation.
Hedshaker
New member
Pity you weren't around for the Dover trial, isn't it? You could have done the two step flim flam shuffle with Behe. And if that didn't help there's always the old anti Dawkins propaganda. That's always a crowd cracker.
Still, its exciting times for Spaghetti Monsterism. Only $20 for an Official ordination certificates. :juggle:
Sure if you see the evidence as a slow gradual change from primordial ooze that literal Genesis makes no logical sense. But in the gospel, the entire narrative strings together perfectly. So how someone can go from evolution to Bible is what I can't grasp at the moment. And I'm not saying you can't make that connection I'm just not seeing it.
noguru
Well-known member
I can "see it" from both perspectives. So I look at all the evidence available and let that help me to understand reality. I do not try to force reality to comply with only what I currently understand at any moment. My understanding is always progressing. It is not a stagnant view from pre-scientific people which was then revived by a woman who sustained a couple serious head injuries. You can call it "new age" or anything you want. I think such labels are meaningless and only designed to comfort people who are insecure at the most basic level of their being. My self-esteem is not based on the concept that I have reached the ultimate state of consciousness. My self esteem comes from my willingness to progress in my understanding.
Just nitpicking but you sort of have to make things fit into what you understand at any moment. It can't fit into things you don't understand or you are ignoring it. Does that make sense.
Like I'm starting from my understanding of the universe, which has changed in many direction over time just like everyone's. If things don't fit the way i understand things, I have to evaluate which is more explanatory to reality.
We all have starting points and world views.
noguru
Well-known member
In order to behave a certain way at any moment, yes. But the willingness to admit that I was wrong in my understanding/behavior is crucial to my progress. If I never admit that, I never progress. Then I become entrenched in willful ignorance. And negligence quickly becomes malice.
We are all ignorant of some/many things. There is a difference between not yet being exposed and willful ignorance, however. I am not ashamed of the things for which I have not yet been exposed. Why should I be?
It makes sense. But I do not think it is a thorough examination.
What methodology do you use to do that?
I agree.
The latter quote is not a goal, but it describes the motivation for a methodology.
Also, I am not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Sometimes I realize only part of my understanding is inaccurate. I can mix, eliminate and/or match things in regard to my previous understanding and any epiphany I have.
PureX
Well-known member
This is true. Most of us don't realize that what we currently consider to be "real and true" is a strong bias that will effect any new information that we encounter. Because we'll seek to fit that new information into the conceptual paradigm of reality that we already hold as real and true.
But noguru's point stands, as well: that if we understand this about ourselves, we can set aside our ego-investment in maintaining our preconceived paradigm of reality and truth, and so be more open to allowing new information to change it.
But it is an endless struggle for we humans, because the only "reality" we have is the elaborate paradigm that we hold in our heads, and the limited sensual information coming into us at any given moment. So although we do need to be willing to alter the paradigm according to new information, we couldn't function if we had to re-determine it as a whole every time we encountered something that didn't fit exactly.
So that it becomes a balance between exploration and entrenchment.
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6days
New member
Excellent thoughts Monk, as you realize that the Bible and billions of years can't be harmonized.Monk316 said:
What type of God would use a trial and error process to create? What type of God would create using millions of years of suffering, death, disease and extinctions: then say that it was "very good". What type of God would then give us a contradictory account of our beginnings?
Re. your comment about Genesis being a poem. Well... it is not written as poetry, although that is what theistic evolutionists have to believe. Genesis is written as a historical account complete with genealogies. Throughout the Old Testament you can see several different authors: referring back to events in Genesis as true history. And we can see Jesus referring to Genesis as at historically correct account.... Including saying that humans existed at the beginning. (Evolutionists say humans came along at the end of an 18 billion year ' creation')
Exactly! If there is no literal Adam and literal first sin...then the Gospel message becomes garbled and meaningless. Why do we need the "second Adam" (Jesus)Monk316 said:
If Adam was not a real person who existed st the beginning of creation then you need to believe that death, suffering, thorns etc all existed before sin. And if those things existed before then then the Bible is wrong.
Trying to reconcile the Gospel with evolutionism is a deciding to make your own religion... its story of like buffet Christianity where you decide what to believe from the Bible.Monk316 said:
Bible: "If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do?"
Monk...there is always two ways of interpreting evidence about our origins. Science confirms the Bible! There are astrophysicists, physicists and astronomers who say the evidence supports the Biblical account. There are biologists who believe in the creator, who were previously atheists, and who loved teaching evolution...and mocking Christians. (Now they are one). There are microbiologists, geneticists and even a few vegetarians
who proclaim that Christ is our Lord and our Creator.
Dear 6days and monk316,
I have two cats. One is a calico, with 5 toes on each foot. She does fine. One cat is a tabby, with 5 toes on one foot, 6 toes on one foot, and 7 toes on the other two feet. She does fine. God made them both different, but almost to seem like the tabby was a freak of nature. But she's got 3 extra claws to fight back with. No she does not have a leg growing out of her eye, but God didn't want that to happen. If He did, He would have, I'm sure.
Just wanted to let you know. I'd trust Him first. And I love both of my cats and my two dogs.
God Bless You Both Tons!!
Michael
I have two cats. One is a calico, with 5 toes on each foot. She does fine. One cat is a tabby, with 5 toes on one foot, 6 toes on one foot, and 7 toes on the other two feet. She does fine. God made them both different, but almost to seem like the tabby was a freak of nature. But she's got 3 extra claws to fight back with. No she does not have a leg growing out of her eye, but God didn't want that to happen. If He did, He would have, I'm sure.
Just wanted to let you know. I'd trust Him first. And I love both of my cats and my two dogs.
God Bless You Both Tons!!
Michael
One Eyed Jack
New member
My dog has an extra toe on each hind foot. One of them doesn't have any bones though -- it's basically just a lump with a nail growing out of it. He's my neotenous wonder-wolf.
Excellent thoughts Monk, as you realize that the Bible and billions of years can't be harmonized.
What type of God would use a trial and error process to create? What type of God would create using millions of years of suffering, death, disease and extinctions: then say that it was "very good". What type of God would then give us a contradictory account of our beginnings?
Re. your comment about Genesis being a poem. Well... it is not written as poetry, although that is what theistic evolutionists have to believe. Genesis is written as a historical account complete with genealogies. Throughout the Old Testament you can see several different authors: referring back to events in Genesis as true history. And we can see Jesus referring to Genesis as at historically correct account.... Including saying that humans existed at the beginning. (Evolutionists say humans came along at the end of an 18 billion year ' creation')
Exactly! If there is no literal Adam and literal first sin...then the Gospel message becomes garbled and meaningless. Why do we need the "second Adam" (Jesus)
If Adam was not a real person who existed st the beginning of creation then you need to believe that death, suffering, thorns etc all existed before sin. And if those things existed before then then the Bible is wrong.
Trying to reconcile the Gospel with evolutionism is a deciding to make your own religion... its story of like buffet Christianity where you decide what to believe from the Bible.
Bible: "If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do?"
Monk...there is always two ways of interpreting evidence about our origins. Science confirms the Bible! There are astrophysicists, physicists and astronomers who say the evidence supports the Biblical account. There are biologists who believe in the creator, who were previously atheists, and who loved teaching evolution...and mocking Christians. (Now they are one). There are microbiologists, geneticists and even a few vegetarians
I don't even really have a problem with billions of years. IIRC it doesn't say when sin occurred. How long was Adam in the garden living in a perfect existence? I know I have read it was the 10th day or something like that but do we know that Adam and Eve didn't live for what is equated to billions of years?
There is also Gap theory. We know that Satan was given rule over the earth and rebelled. He was cast out of Heaven at some point that is not recorded in relation to the beginning that I know of. So I can see billions of years but not evolution. And I don't think the evidence point directly toward evolution unless you look at it with that world view.
PureX
Well-known member
That's all well and good. But is it really all that wise or morally superior to ignore the fact that God did this through the genetic sequencing within each cat? Or that there is a natural process by which these sequences come about? Does believing in God's will, in your mind, mean that we have to deny the processes of nature? And wouldn't the denial of natural process be a denial of reality: wouldn't it, in fact, be a lie?
6days
New member
Adam lived 930 years.Monk316 said:
(quite easy to do without an almost perfect genome. Lifespans decreased throughout the Old Testament)
Thorns, suffering and death did not exist until after sin.
True.... but the text doesn't allow for that. That ' theory' was developed by a fellow named Chalmers. He thought he could squeeze a few billion years into the text by reading the King James version of the Bible. But it was a misunderstanding on his part because the Hebrew text does not allow for a gap between verse 1 and 2 the creation account.Monk316 said:
Monk316 said:
I hope you are not insulted by this but I think you are me from several years ago. I think I had the same thoughts and arguments. Many Christians believe that same way. But as for me I now believe that God's Word doesn't allow for billions of years. And I agree with your comments about evolution ( the belief in a common ancestor). It is anti-science, but the main point is that it is anti-Biblical.
What it means to me is that my God made one cat one way and the other cat the other way. It was His doing, not natural selection. I adopted that cat because of it's uniqueness. Saw it on TV and went to the animal shelter to get it.
My calico is almost symmetrical. Is that awesome work from God also? God controls everything, not "Mother Nature."
In His Love and Understanding,
Michael
This is a copy of Post No. 1 of this thread. Maybe you will then understand how man could have been around for millions of years and the dinosaurs that lived before man, etc. God created man ONCE, but He "Formed" man a number of times. Study and pray:
Dear All,
I'm going to tell you what the Lord told me; the facts. I hope it helps you all and that you STUDY your Bible and the first two books of Genesis to understand. Thank you. The earth has been here for a few billion years. Some of you seem to think that just by gradual changing, different species 'evolved'. Give God more credit than that. God created every creature on the earth, in each day/generation that is written in the Bible. This includes also when the dinosaurs were on earth. But, God wiped the screen blank a number of times indeed. In other words, He created and then obliterated, and formed each animal and bird, and critter and man/woman differently, each time changed in ways He saw fit. Just like He obliterated everyone but Noah and his family. There is NO EVOLUTION. Tell that to God when you see HIM. He has EVERY PART on how each animal/human was formed because He kept re-forming them and making them different each time. It's God's HANDIWORK here at stake, not "evolution's." From our own Adam and Eve being formed, this is the generation of 'our' Adam.
You'll notice in the first chapter of Genesis, it says God "Created" each in their 'day'. We also cannot ascertain that, in the past million years, 24 hours was the 'day's' length then either. All that I do know is that He has revealed something to me to share with others, for their sakes. He did create the first Adam and Eve in six days and rested on the seventh. Believe me or not. It really doesn't matter. In the first chapter of Genesis, it says God created the beasts and birds, and all of that, before He created man on the sixth 'day''. Now follow all this closely and re-read it as much as necessary for you. In the SECOND chapter of Genesis, does it not say that the 'Lord' God "Formed" man from the dust of the ground. And the Lord God saw that the man was lonely, and so He 'formed' the birds, and animals from the dust of the ground and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. So first, we have Adam being CREATED after the birds and beasts were CREATED, and yet in Genesis chapter two, it says the Lord God FORMED man BEFORE the beasts and birds.
You will also notice that in the first chapter, God said the fowl/birds were created from the waters, but in the second chapter, it says the Lord God FORMED the birds/fowl from the dust of the ground. Now it is time for people to know the truth because they are questioning the true existence of God. I happen to know that God CREATED man and woman once, and the Lord God wiped them from the face of the earth many times and improved man and animals and plants, etc. as He saw fit. That is why we find man's bones that are way older than 5,000 years, or "OUR" ADAM. There were Adams and Eves formed many times over the millions of years and they were perfected and changed as the Lord God saw fit. That is why it is written, "and He called THEIR name Adam in the day they were created. That is why it is written, 'This (our Bible) is the book of the generations of Adam, in the image of God made he him/man.' I'm not sure that is the exact quote without looking it up right now. It is not a big matter. The Lord God has wiped the earth clean before and He will again. Remember Noah and his wife, of whom we are all descended from, therefore we are ALL Brothers and Sisters who don't get along well. Ishmael is the descendant of all of the Arab people. I hope I've explained this well enough for now. This is the Lord God's playpen down here (His VERY BELOVED CREATION) and He will change things as He will a dollhouse. It's His option. What are you going to do about it?? Forget your Evolution idea!! There is a Higher Power that oversees every little change in every creature He forms. That's all, just for now. Re-read and study, and look in your Bibles.
May the Lord God Continue to Bless the Lord Jesus,
For the Lord (God) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit thou at my right hand until I make thy enemies your footstool." He is doing just that. Can you understand any of this?? Please, if you have any comments, keep them civil and maybe kind? This is some of the info that the Lord told John of Patmos NOT to write (Rev. 10:4), when the seven thunders uttered their voices. People were not ready to handle it then, but we are ready now.
Praise His Greatness and His Intense Imagination, Which Is An Incredible Amazing Thing,
Michael Cadry
If you'd like a FREE copy of my book, go to the link below: (www.jesusreturningverysoon.com, then click on 'Book Copy', then SKU-text.pdf and the Title Page of my book will come up. Use the cursor up and down keys and you can then read it off your computer screen or if you're smart enough, maybe you know how to download a copy to your printer. God Be With Each Of You!
Dear All,
I'm going to tell you what the Lord told me; the facts. I hope it helps you all and that you STUDY your Bible and the first two books of Genesis to understand. Thank you. The earth has been here for a few billion years. Some of you seem to think that just by gradual changing, different species 'evolved'. Give God more credit than that. God created every creature on the earth, in each day/generation that is written in the Bible. This includes also when the dinosaurs were on earth. But, God wiped the screen blank a number of times indeed. In other words, He created and then obliterated, and formed each animal and bird, and critter and man/woman differently, each time changed in ways He saw fit. Just like He obliterated everyone but Noah and his family. There is NO EVOLUTION. Tell that to God when you see HIM. He has EVERY PART on how each animal/human was formed because He kept re-forming them and making them different each time. It's God's HANDIWORK here at stake, not "evolution's." From our own Adam and Eve being formed, this is the generation of 'our' Adam.
You'll notice in the first chapter of Genesis, it says God "Created" each in their 'day'. We also cannot ascertain that, in the past million years, 24 hours was the 'day's' length then either. All that I do know is that He has revealed something to me to share with others, for their sakes. He did create the first Adam and Eve in six days and rested on the seventh. Believe me or not. It really doesn't matter. In the first chapter of Genesis, it says God created the beasts and birds, and all of that, before He created man on the sixth 'day''. Now follow all this closely and re-read it as much as necessary for you. In the SECOND chapter of Genesis, does it not say that the 'Lord' God "Formed" man from the dust of the ground. And the Lord God saw that the man was lonely, and so He 'formed' the birds, and animals from the dust of the ground and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. So first, we have Adam being CREATED after the birds and beasts were CREATED, and yet in Genesis chapter two, it says the Lord God FORMED man BEFORE the beasts and birds.
You will also notice that in the first chapter, God said the fowl/birds were created from the waters, but in the second chapter, it says the Lord God FORMED the birds/fowl from the dust of the ground. Now it is time for people to know the truth because they are questioning the true existence of God. I happen to know that God CREATED man and woman once, and the Lord God wiped them from the face of the earth many times and improved man and animals and plants, etc. as He saw fit. That is why we find man's bones that are way older than 5,000 years, or "OUR" ADAM. There were Adams and Eves formed many times over the millions of years and they were perfected and changed as the Lord God saw fit. That is why it is written, "and He called THEIR name Adam in the day they were created. That is why it is written, 'This (our Bible) is the book of the generations of Adam, in the image of God made he him/man.' I'm not sure that is the exact quote without looking it up right now. It is not a big matter. The Lord God has wiped the earth clean before and He will again. Remember Noah and his wife, of whom we are all descended from, therefore we are ALL Brothers and Sisters who don't get along well. Ishmael is the descendant of all of the Arab people. I hope I've explained this well enough for now. This is the Lord God's playpen down here (His VERY BELOVED CREATION) and He will change things as He will a dollhouse. It's His option. What are you going to do about it?? Forget your Evolution idea!! There is a Higher Power that oversees every little change in every creature He forms. That's all, just for now. Re-read and study, and look in your Bibles.
May the Lord God Continue to Bless the Lord Jesus,
For the Lord (God) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit thou at my right hand until I make thy enemies your footstool." He is doing just that. Can you understand any of this?? Please, if you have any comments, keep them civil and maybe kind? This is some of the info that the Lord told John of Patmos NOT to write (Rev. 10:4), when the seven thunders uttered their voices. People were not ready to handle it then, but we are ready now.
Praise His Greatness and His Intense Imagination, Which Is An Incredible Amazing Thing,
Michael Cadry
If you'd like a FREE copy of my book, go to the link below: (www.jesusreturningverysoon.com, then click on 'Book Copy', then SKU-text.pdf and the Title Page of my book will come up. Use the cursor up and down keys and you can then read it off your computer screen or if you're smart enough, maybe you know how to download a copy to your printer. God Be With Each Of You!
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