Glorydaz post of Psalm 33:6-9 KJV - says pretty much. Genesis, Job also. but for the OP as to God making something from nothing; there was never nothing cuz there was always God - lol
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Glorydaz post of Psalm 33:6-9 KJV - says pretty much. Genesis, Job also. but for the OP as to God making something from nothing; there was never nothing cuz there was always God - lol
Interplanner
Well-known member
I used the expression 'formless and void/empty'. Gen 1:2. Mankind tends to copy the Creator in that we also create form and fill it.
OCTOBER23
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Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
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Hebrews 11:3 Through faith <4102> we understand <3539> (5719) that the worlds <165> were framed <2675> (5771) by the word <4487> of God <2316>, so <1519> that things which <3588> are seen <991> (5746) were <1096> <0> not <3361> made <1096> (5755) of <1537> things which do appear <5316> (5730).
-----------------------------------
165 worlds, universe, ages
2675 completed , put in order
4487 COMMAND, SPOKEN WORD
991 seen with the eyes
1096 come into existence, made, created
------------------------------------
5316 φαίνω phaino fah’-ee-no
prolongation for the base of 5457; v; TDNT-9:1,1244; { See TDNT 824 }
AV-appear 17, shine 10, be seen 2, seem 1, think 1; 31
1) to bring forth into the light, cause to shine, shed light
2) shine
2a) to shine, be bright or resplendent
2b) to become evident, to be brought forth into the light, come to view, appear
2b1) of growing vegetation, to come to light
2b2) to appear, be seen
2b3) exposed to view
2c) to meet the eyes, strike the sight, become clear or manifest
2c1) to be seen, appear
--------------------------------------
5457 φῶς phos foce
from an obsolete phao (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays, cf 5316, 5346); n n; TDNT-9:310,1293; { See TDNT 839 }
AV-light 68, fire 2; 70
1) light
1a) the light
1a1) emitted by a lamp
1a2) a heavenly light such as surrounds angels when they appear on earth
1b) anything emitting light
1b1) a star
1b2) fire because it is light and sheds light
1b3) a lamp or torch
1c) light, i.e brightness
1c1) of a lamp
----------------------------------------------
This last part seems to Refer to Stars which are composed of Hydrogen Gas
which the Eye Cannot See ...........
The Hydrogen of a Star over the ages FUZES TO HELIUM, THEN TO SILICON, OXYGEN, CARBON AND FINALLY IRON AND BECOMES A BROWN DWARF WHICH COOLS DOWN TO FORM A PLANET WITH A MOLTEN IRON CORE AS WE HAVE HERE ON EARTH.
Thus Hydrogen which we cannot see becomes those PLANETS which we can see.
======================================================
----------------------------------
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith <4102> we understand <3539> (5719) that the worlds <165> were framed <2675> (5771) by the word <4487> of God <2316>, so <1519> that things which <3588> are seen <991> (5746) were <1096> <0> not <3361> made <1096> (5755) of <1537> things which do appear <5316> (5730).
-----------------------------------
165 worlds, universe, ages
2675 completed , put in order
4487 COMMAND, SPOKEN WORD
991 seen with the eyes
1096 come into existence, made, created
------------------------------------
5316 φαίνω phaino fah’-ee-no
prolongation for the base of 5457; v; TDNT-9:1,1244; { See TDNT 824 }
AV-appear 17, shine 10, be seen 2, seem 1, think 1; 31
1) to bring forth into the light, cause to shine, shed light
2) shine
2a) to shine, be bright or resplendent
2b) to become evident, to be brought forth into the light, come to view, appear
2b1) of growing vegetation, to come to light
2b2) to appear, be seen
2b3) exposed to view
2c) to meet the eyes, strike the sight, become clear or manifest
2c1) to be seen, appear
--------------------------------------
5457 φῶς phos foce
from an obsolete phao (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays, cf 5316, 5346); n n; TDNT-9:310,1293; { See TDNT 839 }
AV-light 68, fire 2; 70
1) light
1a) the light
1a1) emitted by a lamp
1a2) a heavenly light such as surrounds angels when they appear on earth
1b) anything emitting light
1b1) a star
1b2) fire because it is light and sheds light
1b3) a lamp or torch
1c) light, i.e brightness
1c1) of a lamp
----------------------------------------------
This last part seems to Refer to Stars which are composed of Hydrogen Gas
which the Eye Cannot See ...........
The Hydrogen of a Star over the ages FUZES TO HELIUM, THEN TO SILICON, OXYGEN, CARBON AND FINALLY IRON AND BECOMES A BROWN DWARF WHICH COOLS DOWN TO FORM A PLANET WITH A MOLTEN IRON CORE AS WE HAVE HERE ON EARTH.
Thus Hydrogen which we cannot see becomes those PLANETS which we can see.
======================================================
Interplanner
Well-known member
Interesting work, but please copy it over at Creation v Evolution in Religion. I have never seen one of the unbelievers (naturalistic uniformitarians) here at ECT threads.
I say God first created science, that is knowledge, wisdom.
He first created evil, then set about bring forth good from evil and separating them [by wisdom] with the purpose of completely destroying evil
...Adam's sin interrupted His purpose, caused a parenthesis.
...My own speculation I hasten to add.
He first created evil, then set about bring forth good from evil and separating them [by wisdom] with the purpose of completely destroying evil
...Adam's sin interrupted His purpose, caused a parenthesis.
...My own speculation I hasten to add.
it's gettin' late, sleep on those statements.which one's first ? God didn't create evil
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Acts 17:28 KJV
28 For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring.
Ask Mr. Religion
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If creation was not ex nihilo ("out of nothing") then the presumption is something was co-eternal with God. This would be error.
God creating "with what was within Himself" hints at some sort of panentheism. This view, metaphorically speaking is akin to saying "God is an ocean and we are the fish".
The alternative notion that creation "emanates" from God—creation out of God—is pantheism.
Creatio ex nihilo properly emphasizes that nothing was in existence when God began to create and that what He created was not created out of God's own substance.
Fisher's treatment of the Westminster Shorter Catechism in his Shorter Catechism is helpful here:
Spoiler
AMR
God created out of things not seen,
not out of nothing.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
LA
not out of nothing.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
LA
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
You do realize that 3 and 4 are contradictory. No?
3 is in agreement with Paul.
Acts 17:28 KJV
28 For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring.
4 is in total ignorance of the word of God.
Because something, get this, SOMETHING is unseen does not make it nothing.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Cut yer head in bro.
Sure He did, you don't think the devil put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden do you?
Evil is not sin per se
Man's pursuance of evil and the knowledge of it was and is sin.
God did not create man for evil
Ask Mr. Religion
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Don't understand the strident dogmatism here given the well understood discussions by the saints past and present that are contrary to your "sureness":
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4445544#post4445544
Evil is not something sitting in the corner smoldering as in some substance or spiritual essence. Evil has no substantial, ontological existence.
Matthew Henry is helpful here:
Spoiler
Within Scripture, evil and sin are never considered as "things" or "not things." They are considered to be actions and consequences.
Evil is a broader category than sin. Sin creates and leads to evil. Cancer is a great evil that is the result of sin generally (not anyone's sin in particular save Adam's, e.g., John 9) but is not sin. All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin.
Sin is the action (lawlessness, e.g., 1 John 3:4) and evil is its consequence.
Satan denied the goodness of God in his rebellion. Said denial of the good is evil. Evil is an ethical state of said denial, thus, the privation of the good. The temptation of Satan brought Adam into this evil state. When Adam partook of the fruit he engaged in an ethical act of rebellion. Hence, the fall of Adam and all his progeny is not some ontological event, but an ethical event. Adam embraced no substantial thing called "evil". Instead when Adam turned from God and the good, he denied the good. In that denial of the good lies the ethical act which was evil—a want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God.
From Scripture we see God on display as such a great and good God that evil acts do not defeat Him (Gen. 50:20; Romans 8:28), rather God uses evil to bring about the greatest good, as especially in the death of Our Lord, wherein lies the death of death for God's people. God's supreme wisdom is such that in both the use and defeat of evil He brings about more in Christ Our Lord than we ever lost in Adam.
From the Belgic Confession...
Spoiler
Whatever we do, let's not try to "rescue" God from the problem of evil via false theodicies, as do the open theists and others. Everytime we try to make God's actions completely "reasonable" (to our finite minds) we run roughshod over the Book of Job and the cross.
God is not morally liable for evil, but we cannot say exactly what His relations are—it is beyond our capacity. Nevertheless, there is much we can say from James, causality, etc., but we can't give an exhaustive answer. How this all works we leave to the mind of God which is, as WCF 2.1 and elsewhere says,"incomprehensible."
At this point, we trust in God's goodness. Let's remind ourselves that we can know that what God has done is right and good, because God did it. The thought that we would have done things differently shouldn't function as an indictment of God, but as a grateful reminder that God is the judge of all the earth, that God is goodness itself, that (in a word) He is God, and we are not. And so where we cannot explain or where we do not understand, we can still rest and resist our itching ears for things contrary to Holy Writ. God has given significant help to the weakness of our faith in this regard by making clear that He is not the author nor the approver of sin.
AMR
Hey brother you are not the only one to have studied the Saints of old, I have my own copy of Matthew Henry
Truth and revelation didn't die with any of them, and we are not excused from diligently seeking the Holy Spirit for ourselves off their backs. We will weigh their words.
You say they were not sure...you seem as sure in your view as I am in mine....
Jesus said this
The wall did not fall upon the people because they were more sinners than others...the sun rises upon the just and the unjust alike.
Paul says these kind of experiences are common to all men....Paul was not shipwrecked three times because he [and he was the most important person on that boat] was a sinner.
He was beaten many times because he was a saint, that is a different matter.
But you see then that evil is a true entity but where the saint has an advantage is that we have the resources of an angel to stand with us and tell us what to do. [in the case of Paul] We have the TOTAL ASSURANCE that if God sends us to Rome, we are going to Rome and nothing can prevent us....this no small help to our faith.
@ AMR # 34
I think sin is the study and use of evil for wrong purposes.
We agree that cancer is an evil result of Adam's sin and not personal sin, when we say Adam's sin we should acknowledge that we are just as guilty as he was.
WHY then I wonder greatly do you think that in bearing our sins that He would
not bear our cancer? it is there together in the same portion, it is the same prophecy, the same promise.
That is what I mean when I say we are thankful to past saints for rediscovering that He bore our sins...but let us not just rest off their diligence, let the revelation come to us "He bare our sicknesses".
Well... Satan's sin is shrouded in mystery, we ought to show caution, to say it is a denial of God's goodness and assume that this is what evil is, to me is an assumption to far.
We say he is the prince of darkness, his name properly means chaos....and that gives us a clue
For these were the conditions that prevailed before God created, there was a great void and darkness covered the face of the deep....I say these things represent evil. That is why I say God created it, it is like the negative of what is positive.
Sin is a desire to return to darkness, chaos, non existence, death....like when the Jews wanted to return to Egypt.
I think sin is the study and use of evil for wrong purposes.
We agree that cancer is an evil result of Adam's sin and not personal sin, when we say Adam's sin we should acknowledge that we are just as guilty as he was.
WHY then I wonder greatly do you think that in bearing our sins that He would
not bear our cancer? it is there together in the same portion, it is the same prophecy, the same promise.
That is what I mean when I say we are thankful to past saints for rediscovering that He bore our sins...but let us not just rest off their diligence, let the revelation come to us "He bare our sicknesses".
Well... Satan's sin is shrouded in mystery, we ought to show caution, to say it is a denial of God's goodness and assume that this is what evil is, to me is an assumption to far.
We say he is the prince of darkness, his name properly means chaos....and that gives us a clue
For these were the conditions that prevailed before God created, there was a great void and darkness covered the face of the deep....I say these things represent evil. That is why I say God created it, it is like the negative of what is positive.
Sin is a desire to return to darkness, chaos, non existence, death....like when the Jews wanted to return to Egypt.
@AMR #34
Far from trying to rescue God from the problem of evil I say that He created it, more, evil is the rough material from which God creates good. The canvas on which He paints.
But He did not create man for evil....He created man for good.
Evil is not sin, man's partaking of evil and the knowledge of evil is sin.
I am not OVT
Far from trying to rescue God from the problem of evil I say that He created it, more, evil is the rough material from which God creates good. The canvas on which He paints.
But He did not create man for evil....He created man for good.
Evil is not sin, man's partaking of evil and the knowledge of evil is sin.
I am not OVT
Ask Mr. Religion
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I am afraid you have taken discussions of evil in Scripture beyond their intended meaning. You seem to want allegory to replace proper genre's in Scripture on the matter.
Evil is not "a thing". Evil is not an "entity".
"Things" have existence in their own right. You cannot point to the "thing" called "evil". Rather you must point to moral agents (men, women, fallen angels, that is, real "things" and "entities") whose acts are evil.
Evil is the result of sin. Sin is want of conformity unto, or transgression of the law of God.
Now you can wave off the insights of others that I have suggested or the many more in agreement with what I am trying to show you and cling to a notion that you have interpreted rightly and everyone else is wrong. You have read those preceding us, so you know this. So I would ask that you think and study more about what ontological existence and the nature of being means before you claim to be more illuminated than those that have come before us.
AMR
As I have said to you before I do not wave off the insights of others, I am as well versed as you...regarding our respective ages
However, I do not enshrine EVERYTHING they say into a credal point which must be defended at all costs....scripture I will defend at all costs
Some of your heros indulged in a great deal of speculation....
If there is no positive evil then there is no positive good....is that what you will have? it is the very doctrine of the lattitudinarians, the libertines.
Now I say there is God and then there is everything which God created, I deny that they have any existence "in their own right" they have existence insofar as God allows them.
That includes angels fallen or elect, of Satan, Lucifer, it is said "until sin was found in him"
That is all that is said...anything further than that as to the origin of sin is speculation, why it was found in him, what form it took...we know what effect it had, what it made him to be.
That is the origin of sin
But evil was already in existence, and it was God who planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden.
It is there, it is in the midst, at the heart of creation.
Adam was a sinner by partaking it's fruit, but it was there, and it was there by God, before he did so.
Evil is not sin, man's partaking of the knowledge of evil is sin.
God chides the Jews in Isaiah for their idols, He says "they are gods let them do good or evil, let them show themselves to be gods"
The truth is that good and evil are things that are proper to God and God alone....He created both but He created man only for good.