Could You Train Yourself To Enjoy...

[glassjester]

If that why isn't present the rest fails. They aren't forcing themselves to like something they don't want to like. They're acclimating to a thing they want, either for the thing itself or some related reason they find compelling.

Yes, of course. That's the most important part of this equation.
You can want to like something, that you currently don't.

Now the only question that matters here is: can the will to like something actually lead (in any possible sequence of events) to you liking it?

 

[glassjester]

and what determines how we will respond?

willingness

the way we approach it

:thumb:

And the only responses are... I will try to do this thing again, or I will not try to do this thing again.

Remember my smoking example?

 

[glassjester]

Are you not familiar with dictionaries?

Is "great work of art" in the dictionary?

and... can you define "great work of art" objectively?

 

[glassjester]

You've been given reasons - and repeatedly as to why certain things for certain people are simply not - and can't be enjoyable.

No. I've been given the same unsubstantiated, personal opinion repeatedly. Your personal experience is no more valid than my own. If personal experiences are all we each present, we're at a standstill.

Do you have any objective reason to believe that it's impossible to intentionally come to enjoy something that you previously did not enjoy?

So if this is as far as you're willing to debate despite the detailed and in depth responses you've had - and which you've edited to bits in 'response', are you now willing to concede that for some of us Beyonce will simply never be enjoyable as a musical experience?

Feel free to point out the objective proof of your argument, that I so deviously avoided responding to.

In the mean time, are you willing to consider actual academic research concerning how we form our musical preferences? Or would you rather continue to point to your personal opinions as if they were adamant fact?

 

[Town Heretic]

Yes, of course. That's the most important part of this equation.
You can want to like something, that you currently don't.

I'd say alcohol is an example of that, though I also believe there are things we can't impact by choice and some things where we can't reasonably get to the why/motivation that would make the potential an actual. My response to the taste of celery, by way of...I'd never find a compelling answer to the why, assuming I could ever overcome my inherent response to its taste. Sex is, as I've noted, another no sell for me and, I imagine, for most people.

Now the only question that matters here is: can the will to like something actually lead (in any possible sequence of events) to you liking it?

No, I don't believe it could put that broadly. Even if I wanted to like the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard, I think my physiological response would preclude the possibility. I believe that sex is the same for those hard wired into heterosexuality.

 

[glassjester]

I'd say alcohol is an example of that, though I also believe there are things we can't impact by choice and some things where we can't reasonably get to the why/motivation that would make the potential an actual. My response to the taste of celery, by way of...I'd never find a compelling answer to the why, assuming I could ever overcome my inherent response to its taste. Sex is, as I've noted, another no sell for me and, I imagine, for most people.

No, I don't believe it could put that broadly. Even if I wanted to like the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard, I think my physiological response would preclude the possibility. I believe that sex is the same for those hard wired into heterosexuality.

Alright - then we can agree that it is possible, though it is too broad to say that it's possible for any and all things.

So let's narrow the discussion back down to what's turned out to be the main focus of the thread: music.

It's possible with alcohol. It's possible with cigarettes. Is it possible with music?

 

[Arthur Brain]

No. I've been given the same unsubstantiated, personal opinion repeatedly. Your personal experience is no more valid than my own. If personal experiences are all we each present, we're at a standstill.

Do you have any objective reason to believe that it's impossible to intentionally come to enjoy something that you previously did not enjoy?

Oh, you've been given a damn sight more than that GJ. People have taken the effort to go into depth in response to you and what do you generally offer in turn? Snippets of those replies ignoring much of the detail is what and then regurgitation of some stupid 'campfire' examples. It's bloody infuriating to be quite frank.

Nobody's arguing that it's impossible not to like a thing previously unpalatable as with the 'beer example' alone. That does not apply to everything as you have had explained to you over and over again. TH is never gonna like celery and I'm never gonna like peanut butter. Some things are just innate and unchangeable.

Feel free to point out the objective proof of your argument, that I so deviously avoided responding to.

In the mean time, are you willing to consider actual academic research concerning how we form our musical preferences? Or would you rather continue to point to your personal opinions as if they were adamant fact?

Do you seriously think you've been "objective" on this thread? From the get go you've been insistent that anyone can "train" themselves to enjoy any given thing, namely 'Beyonce songs' through 'familiarity' et al and you've had no actual 'proof' for any of this. You just arrogantly bang on that 'singing along to it and dancing to it' etc will somehow change a bland, boring pop song into something musically interesting.

It doesn't, and it really doesn't require any academic wrangling as to why your position is a load of bollocks. If you enjoy Beyonce then you keep on listening and dancing to it around a campfire or some such. Just don't insist that everyone can enjoy commercial pap because you like it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Alright - then we can agree that it is possible, though it is too broad to say that it's possible for any and all things.

So let's narrow the discussion back down to what's turned out to be the main focus of the thread: music.

It's possible with alcohol. It's possible with cigarettes. Is it possible with music?

Yes, but as TH explained in detail to you in post #262 it's not going to apply to what you seemingly insist upon. Else, how about you listen and dance to 'chopsticks' for the next week and nothing else and see if the familiarity with the piece leaves you loving it or tearing your hair out...

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Is "great work of art" in the dictionary?

and... can you define "great work of art" objectively?

I think the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel looks like it's been painted by an inebriated yak. All of em' "learned" folk who regard it as a technically proficient work of artistic genius are just talking out of their hat...

Now, I need some sophisticated structure and form so where's that Beyonce CD at?

lain:

 

[Town Heretic]

Alright - then we can agree that it is possible, though it is too broad to say that it's possible for any and all things.

So let's narrow the discussion back down to what's turned out to be the main focus of the thread: music... Is it possible with music?

I'd say in this sense, that children are typically exposed to simplistic, repetitive music in the introductory phase and that they delight in it for a time. Eventually, as they mature, their tastes expand and they require more to engage them. So music that would for many have been incomprehensible and whose complexity might well have been met with indifference, frustration, or rejection, can become a thing desired, encompassed, and admired. Or, I think we can grow into taste, expand it. I think that's in accord with our nature.

That's a bit different than smoking or drinking, where the change isn't an expression of a native evolution, but a willful attempt to overcome a dislike in order to attain some other desired outcome and it's a great deal different than attempting to overcome genetic predisposition and cultural inculcation, but it's as close as I can come to it.

 

[ok doser]

Doser,...

i don't think you quite have the hang of the concept of ignore :freak:

 

[ok doser]

There's really no such thing as an objectively "great" work of art.

Of course there is.

then you should be able to list the objective, measurable qualities that define a "great" work of art

Are you not familiar with dictionaries?

Is "great work of art" in the dictionary?

and... can you define "great work of art" objectively?

I think the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel looks like it's been painted by an inebriated yak. All of em' "learned" folk who regard it as a technically proficient work of artistic genius are just talking out of their hat...

Now, I need some sophisticated structure and form so where's that Beyonce CD at?

lain:

still waiting for you to list the objective, measurable qualities that define a "great" work of art :idunno:

 

[glassjester]

I think the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel looks like it's been painted by an inebriated yak. All of em' "learned" folk who regard it as a technically proficient work of artistic genius are just talking out of their hat...

Now, I need some sophisticated structure and form so where's that Beyonce CD at?

lain:

Sophisticated structure does not equate to beauty, does it?

Who's to say whether the structure of a work of art is too sophisticated, or not sophisticated enough to be "great," and how would that not be a matter of purely subjective, personal preference?

 

[ok doser]

Sophisticated structure does not equate to beauty, does it?

Who's to say whether the structure of a work of art is too sophisticated, or not sophisticated enough to be "great," and how would that not be a matter of purely subjective, personal preference?

"sophisticated" is a subjective term

 

[glassjester]

Oh, you've been given a damn sight more than that GJ. People have taken the effort to go into depth in response to you and what do you generally offer in turn? Snippets of those replies ignoring much of the detail is what and then regurgitation of some stupid 'campfire' examples. It's bloody infuriating to be quite frank.

At least the campfire example appears in a published, peer reviewed article on the psychology of musical preferences. Where do your examples come from?

Nobody's arguing that it's impossible not to like a thing previously unpalatable as with the 'beer example' alone. That does not apply to everything as you have had explained to you over and over again. TH is never gonna like celery and I'm never gonna like peanut butter. Some things are just innate and unchangeable.

Some things, yes. But not musical preferences, and not food preferences either.
I've cited multiple pieces of evidence pertaining to each of those. What have you got, but your own personal experiences and opinions?

Do you seriously think you've been "objective" on this thread? From the get go you've been insistent that anyone can "train" themselves to enjoy any given thing, namely 'Beyonce songs' through 'familiarity' et al and you've had no actual 'proof' for any of this. You just arrogantly bang on that 'singing along to it and dancing to it' etc will somehow change a bland, boring pop song into something musically interesting.

It won't change the song one bit. But your actions can change your perception of a thing, surely.

It doesn't, and it really doesn't require any academic wrangling as to why your position is a load of bollocks. If you enjoy Beyonce then you keep on listening and dancing to it around a campfire or some such. Just don't insist that everyone can enjoy commercial pap because you like it.

I don't enjoy Beyonce's music at all. I find "Single Ladies" particularly annoying. Not that my personal opinion of the song should matter for the purpose of this discussion.


Just a side note - you've mentioned a few times that you find my comments infuriating, irritating, etc. Just know that I really intend no offense, here.

 

[glassjester]

"sophisticated" is a subjective term

Certainly. As is one's personally preferred degree of sophistication in works of art.

 

[ok doser]

artie stamps his foot and angrily declares:

TH is never gonna like celery and I'm never gonna like peanut butter.

:chuckle:

 

[ok doser]

artie stamps his foot and angrily insists "i could never learn to enjoy beyonce"

and so, artie will never learn to enjoy beyonce :idunno:

Nothing angry about it...

:think:

Just a side note - you've mentioned a few times that you find my comments infuriating, irritating, etc.

you noticed too, eh?

 

[glassjester]

Yes, but as TH explained in detail to you in post #262 it's not going to apply to what you seemingly insist upon. Else, how about you listen and dance to 'chopsticks' for the next week and nothing else and see if the familiarity with the piece leaves you loving it or tearing your hair out...

lain:

Either result of your Chopsticks experiment would prove that my deliberate actions can change my perception of a musical piece.

 

[glassjester]

I'd say in this sense, that children are typically exposed to simplistic, repetitive music in the introductory phase and that they delight in it for a time. Eventually, as they mature, their tastes expand and they require more to engage them. So music that would for many have been incomprehensible and whose complexity might well have been met with indifference, frustration, or rejection, can become a thing desired, encompassed, and admired. Or, I think we can grow into taste, expand it. I think that's in accord with our nature.

Do you think people are capable of deliberately steering their musical preferences toward certain types of music, and away from others? Or are we all helplessly adrift, and at the mercy of the wind?

That's a bit different than smoking or drinking, where the change isn't an expression of a native evolution, but a willful attempt to overcome a dislike in order to attain some other desired outcome and it's a great deal different than attempting to overcome genetic predisposition and cultural inculcation, but it's as close as I can come to it.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that musical preference is transmitted culturally and genetically?