ECT Classical Original Sin Doctrine Vs. Biblical Origonal Sin Doctrine (A Multi OP Study)

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What is the Strongest proof text for classical Origonal Sin? (Romans 5:18)

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.​

In close evaluation it seems cut and dry... but note... judgment enters through one man's offense. This verse does not say that Adams sin was imputed to all men... it says judgment entered through one man.

God doesn't judge like the judge this verse is referring to, judges... we know this by these words...

John 8:15 (editing in... [MENTION=8445]DAN P[/MENTION] had an excellent point of observation that allowed me to further clarify the intent of posting this scripture... Link here

You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.​

Did you catch that? Jesus doesn't judge according to the flesh! That means that the Adversary does this and it is the "Mark or Seal" of those he has deceived!​

This logically leads one to ask what offense condemns the whole world and who is condemning it? Who is the originator of sin?

Ezekiel 28:15 & Ezek. 28:17

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. ... “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;.​

Did you see it? The heart is lifted up with pride when we look to "ourselves". God judges the heart! This is the mechanism that the Devil thirsts to turn against mankind and God. By convincing us to "Be like Jesus", the Devil is corrupting our hearts! He's a roaring lion, seeking to whom he may devour! His tactics are lame and tiresome, but that crafty old dragon keeps corrupting the source of our redemption by tainting the doctrine with lies and inconsistency that cover up his simple deceit!

Isaiah 14:14

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’​

Who is the "Most High"? I'll give you a hint... HE has the name above ALL names.

Genesis 3:5

For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

Why does this matter? It matters because the very originator of sin has fooled the majority of the church into missing his tired old tactics. He wanted to be like God! Pride!

The Original Sin is Pride and a desire to "Be Like God".

The creation is forever imperfect in comparison to the Creator. Flesh is a quick word to refer to all of creation with. All of creation that is alive has some form of covering or flesh. Even the dust of the earth is likened to flesh.

Satan... that old dragonesk serpent... wanted to "be like God". He wanted God's authority and dominion. The fallout from all of this? We are deceived to believe that sin is complex and that every action we do throughout the day could disconnect us from God. This is the shame and deceit that made Adam and Eve cover their bodies. Shame of what? Shame of God's provision! Their bodies were the cloths of their soul that God had made and upon being deceived... they were ashamed of God's "WORK" and drawn to focus on themselves.

Satan became the father and ruler of this world... or "federal head" of this world by getting us to cast our vote for him in Eden. (2 Co. 4:4; John 14:30)

Flesh exaltation is the Devils seal of ownership. All doctrine fails if it hides the fact that Satan wants us to try to meet the standards of God's perfection. When the creation takes its eyes off of the Creator to focus on what they need to DO to "be like God"... the Devil wins!

Sin entered the world because we were deceived... God's perfection became our obsession by the deceit of innocent children by the Originator of "Unbelief in our Creator's perfect design!"

God cleared this matter up and Original Sin is eradicated! I'll address this in the next OP... as this is the first of an [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION], multi part study.

I'll drop the solution in raw scripture, but for now... it's time to focus on the problem.

Solution (John. 16:9-11)

I would like to thank [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] for inspiring me to write this OP with his fantastic OP... LINK HERE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

That's right!

In recognition of the 4th of May... I'll make it simple...

Guilt leads to Fear
Fear leads to Works
Works lead to Pride

And Pride is the "Original Sin".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

 

[Danoh]

Actually, the Apostle John relates a three-fold principle behind the fall accounted in Genesis 3...

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

While James expands on some of that, this side of said fall, as well.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Allow me to be encouraging... I'll take all matter of communication and be kind... with the obvious flare for being difficult that I have, as long as your rebuke, support or exposition is ON OP TOPIC.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Actually, the Apostle John relates a four-fold principle behind the fall accounted in Genesis 3...

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

While James expands on some of that, this side of said fall, as well.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Danoh...

Excellent OP contribution... keep it coming. I would sincerely like to build this OP up with scripture galore.

This is the first of a series.

- EE

 

[Danoh]

Allow me to be encouraging... I'll take all matter of communication and be kind... with the obvious flare for being difficult that I have, as long as your rebuke, support or exposition is ON OP TOPIC.

I take it you are referring, not to my above, but any such future posts on thread that are not on topic?

Just be sure to demand the same from others, as well

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I take it you are referring, not to my above, but any such future posts on thread that are not on topic?

Just be sure to demand the same from others, as well

On the money and taken correctly. I was writing that as you posted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would like to thank [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] for inspiring me to write this OP with his fantastic OP... LINK HERE

Thanks Evil.Eye! I appreciate that. In the meantime please allow me to point out an obvious error in regard to the false teaching of Original Sin.

If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

In the second chapter of the book of Romans Paul reveals that a man can theoretically obtain eternal life by his "deeds" or by his "works":

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

Here Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).​

If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified." If "law" was never a way whereby a man could theoretically obtain righteousness then why would Paul say that "Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes"?:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes" (Ro.10:4).​

Paul also speaks of the believing remnant out of national Israel and says that their election is of grace and therefore "it is no more of works":

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Ro.11:5-6).​

If no one could theoretically be saved by "works" then why would Paul say that "it is no longer of works"?

Again, all of this demonstrates that no one is born spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Thanks Evil.Eye! I appreciate that. In the meantime please allow me to point out an obvious error in regard to the false teaching of Original Sin.

Recognition is due to you and you are welcome... I fully agree with you that "Classical Origonal Sin" doctrine is false and in error. As you can see, the issue I'm addressing here is how Origonal Sin let's the Old Goat, off the hook and places man's focus on Law Obedience existing as a requirement, before the fall. This is addressed by you and I in almost everything we write (in an undertone sort of way). If the premise that God had intended His Standard of Moral Perfection (Law) to be upon man, upon initial creation, were true... this verse (Romans 7:9) wouldn't exist. Obviously this will be covered in one of the coming OP series releases.

If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

This is on the money! People seem to forget the importance of understanding sacrifices place and who put it in place... (Gen. 3:21). It's almost as if people assume that analytical thinking is forbidden to be used while reading in the Spirit.

People seem to think that to insinuate that we are all born Spiritually alive (Ezekiel 18:20) ... is undercutting Christ. I don't get it. Every since humanity was deceived to "Be Like God", God has given us a shot. (Ps. 82:6) ... In this light we see that all men fail and die spirituality... accept for ONE "Son of Man". This exemplifies Christ and shows that only God can "Be Like God". With this brought to light... how could anyone say it is undercutting God? I believe the reason this is attacked is that it shows that God has always been the Author and Defender of human free will. (John 8:36). To be specific... the burden of belief is placed back to mankind and choice to trust in the Rock becomes the avenue to embrace the foundation of salvation. I believe this scares people because classical Theism has tried enormously hard to squelch this scripturally reinforced fact to the point of ballancing all theological lens through the idea that we are puppets on strings... (Que Rush: "Free Will")

In the second chapter of the book of Romans Paul reveals that a man can theoretically obtain eternal life by his "deeds" or by his "works":

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

Here Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).​

Again... not only will anyone never find that we believe anything other than no human being but the "SON Of Man" could pull this off... but they will find that our theological thrusts on these matters utterly exalt our Dearest and Best Lord, God and Savior... Jesus Christ. I fully agree with you!

If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified." If "law" was never a way whereby a man could theoretically obtain righteousness then why would Paul say that "Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes"?:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes" (Ro.10:4).​

Amen! We are all given a shot to make it home on our own... but by grace there go we, because we all stumble at a point and keep on stumbling! God didn't just tell us not to touch the stove, He allowed us to have the "choice to touch the stove" and feel the burn! What perplexes me is how so many can keep their hand on the stove?!? Perhaps their spiritual hand becomes seared?

Paul also speaks of the believing remnant out of national Israel and says that their election is of grace and therefore "it is no more of works":

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Ro.11:5-6).​

If no one could theoretically be saved by "works" then why would Paul say that "it is no longer of works"?

Amen! Extra points for dispensational recognition.

:thumb:

Again, all of this demonstrates that no one is born spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

Jude 1:12 would be a sham if what you are bolstering through scripture weren't true. How could someone die Spiritually twice... if they hadn't lived and died Spiritually before the second time. [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] brought this up for another purpose, but it clicked and I saw how it linked to your words.

Once we depend on Jesus Christ we are afforded two roads... One road is utter dependence on Him alone... reinforced by our burnt hands, marked with the effort of failed law keeping... the other road is to keep our hand on that stove until all our nerve endings are seared away. (1 Tim. 4:2)

Excellent points Jerry! :thumb:

Gratitude and Growth in His Grace,

- EE

(John 14:6) ... we all have to come to Him once we realize that He is the only completely Good One, that never has and never will stumble.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Once we depend on Jesus Christ we are afforded two roads... One road is utter dependence on Him alone... reinforced by our burnt hands, marked with the effort of failed law keeping... the other road is to keep our hand on that stove until all our nerve endings are seared away. (1 Tim. 4:2)

You have a rare talent in the effective use of words!

Did you see it? The heart is lifted up with pride when we look to "ourselves".

Are not these words of the Lord a perfect illustration of the results pride?:

"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Lk.19:9-14).​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Are not these words of the Lord a perfect illustration of the results pride?:

"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Lk.19:9-14).​

If the OP point was a 15 point buck... you just nailed it between the eyes!

(Is. 42:2) Suggests that our Lord and God never shouted or raised His voice. This only emphasizes the resolute seriousness of what He spoke. I know Is. 42:2 is referring to Spiritual matters, but I like to picture God's resolute strength in calmly delivering His words while among us in "the flesh".

I do believe Mt. 23:33 affirms the dead shot accuracy of the scripture you have quoted!

Amen!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Actually, the Apostle John relates a three-fold principle behind the fall accounted in Genesis 3...

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

While James expands on some of that, this side of said fall, as well.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This thread will need a little tending to grow, but I believe I will utilize some of your verses here in the continuation of this OP series.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

This thread will need a little tending to grow, but I believe I will utilize some of your verses here in the continuation of this OP series.

Go for it Matt.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Go for it Matt.

Who's Matt?

 

[Nick M]

What is the Strongest proof text for classical Origonal Sin? (Romans 5:18)

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.​

In close evaluation it seems cut and dry... but note... judgment enters through one man's offense. This verse does not say that Adams sin was imputed to all men... it says judgment entered through one man.

That isn't very close evaluation, because you left off the main point, through one man's offense judgment came to all men. This is why Paul then also says through one man's righteous act, the free gift comes. Adam was to subdue the world. Instead, he listened to his wife.

 

[Danoh]

Original Sin?

Eradicated?

Depends on how one sees those passages that speak of man giving up the ghost as a description of their physical death - that, and other issues.

Spoiler

All of which refer to man breathing his last breath.

That breath that God first breathed into Adam that then made him a living soul.

And that an expectant mother's womb gives to its' unborn child.

It is clear in Genesis 1 that God built in every first living creature He created, including Adam, the ability to replicate and or reproduce and through that, pass on to its' offspring those abilities that God firsy placed in those first living creatures He created.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Obviously, every living creature passes on to it's offspring what said living creature is comprised of.

Girls look like a little version of mom, and boys walk like dad.

Even in twins separated at birth.

This is also the case where that which greatly impacts one's core.

As when people from now different ethnicities this side of Noah, marry and reproduce.

And as in the case of Crack babies.

A deep core structural change within key aspects of the mother's biological makeup reproduces in its child.

Likewise aa in the case of passing on HIV to a woman who then has a child that ends up HIV positive.

Even "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead..." Rom. 1:20.

And we also know from Scripture that Adam was told...

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And we also know from Scripture that both Adam and Eve did eat from said forbidden tree....

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And we also know from Scripture the following took place after said fall...

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

And we know from Scripture....

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

For putting aside Eve's gratitude for he who she had thought was the coming Redeemer, Adam and Eve's children were of their flesh after their fall.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Why? Due also, to the following principle.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Hence the admonishment to the Believer about that which still dwells in their flesh, even after they are saved.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Hunh?

That old man our body of sin also houses...

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That's right - the Law had been meant to provoke that sin dormant in one's members.

That it might revive from within one, to kill one each time one attempted to obey the Law, that said sin (not sins) might appear sin.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We're talkin here about a man once still born...regenerated anew.

A man whom the Law had sought to show him through the Law that he was dead to righteousness...that God might give him life in his Son.

A man once dead to righteousness and alive unto sin, who has passed from that death to life.

But we're talking a duality here within the Believer now; and thus why the need on the Spirit's part through the Scripture, to ever point it out.

A duality within every Believer the denial of which ends up in a hypocrisy in such - ends up in such a kind of the so called "holiness" movement.

Those out there convinced by what is actually their fleshly mind's perspective in their ignorance: their erroneous assertion that they do not sin.

Might as well rip Romans 5-8 out of their Bibles.

Our old man - with its' lust of the flesh; and its' lust of the eye; and its' pride of life, is Adam's offspring, in Eve.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Both are our dual nature now.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

If such were no longer the case, the following would be unnecessary...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

 

[Danoh]

That isn't very close evaluation, because you left off the main point, through one man's offense judgment came to all men. This is why Paul then also says through one man's righteous act, the free gift comes. Adam was to subdue the world. Instead, he listened to his wife.

Fact is, as with Eve, "he listened to his" - "lust of the flesh...lust of the eyes...and pride of life..."

The very three issues the Lord Himself was tempted in, Matt. 4.

Those three being the "all points" Heb. 4:15, all issues of temptation revolve around.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Nick M]

Fact is, as with Eve, "he listened to his" - "lust of the flesh...lust of the eyes...and pride of life..."

You would not have problems is you just sided with what God says in the Bible regarding right and wrong. And, your statement is false. Hence, no verses given. Allow me.

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

 

[Danoh]

You would not have problems is you just sided with what God says in the Bible regarding right and wrong. And, your statement is false. Hence, no verses given. Allow me.

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

The result of...

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Duh-uh.

That is the very core all your various errors - your literal is a an extreme; is a wooden literal.