Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.
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Strawman, and that is very telling. The question is what laws are we to keep.
I don't need the dictionary, Dave. I wanted the answer.
It wasn't a mistake. I wanted the answer.
There is no question there so I don't understand what you are asking me to answer but I would say that Romans 8 is precisely the passage of scripture which you are here advocating against! Perhaps the single most important verse is one that you chose to skip over...
Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
You simply cannot have it both ways. You can follow the law, which is of the flesh, or you can walk in the Spirit. You cannot do both! Indeed, God Himself will see to it that you fail at the former. He simply will not help you follow the law. The law is against you. It is there to convict you. The law KILLS! The Ten Commandments has a ministry of death, Dave!
II Corinthi8ans 3: 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
You are here advocating for taking the law down off the cross and using it - for what? Righteousness sake? NO!!!!Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Who has bewitched you, Dave, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed to you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
I ask you again, Dave...
What one other thing in the whole of scripture had a ministry of death? The answer is important!
Since you seem to like dictionaries...
Impunity: Exemption from punishment, penalty, or harm.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
Titus 2: 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
That doesn't sound like impunity to me!
I suppose the question is whether you believe that Jesus took away the penalty for your sin?
The ones Jesus told us to keep. John 14
15 If you love me, keep my commandments 23 If a man love me, he will keep my words: 24 He that loveth me not keeps not my sayings
--Dave
You knew what my answer would be, so that means you already had it.
Your mistake was you said your question was not rhetorical when it actually was.
Following the Law is not a work of the flesh
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, reviling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
--Dave
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You know that's not just referring to the ten commandments, right?
And you know that Jesus is not talking to the body of Christ there, right?
None of these verses tell us that we are now free to sin all we want without fear of losing our salvation--which is what impunity means.
Shall we continue in sin? God forbid? --Paul
Freedom from sin is not freedom to sin. Freedom from sin means we don't have to keep on sinning.
--Dave
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You seem to think that not following the law IS sinning. It's not.
Jesus is referring to what he says he is referring to.
Mid Acts says he is not talking to the body of Christ, but Jesus in this passage does not say this is not for the body of Christ.
--Dave
No, I think sinning is "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, reviling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
--Dave
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Your list is incomplete.
Sin is MUCH broader than that.
The law condemns, even if you think that you're keeping it.
Yoda, you are not
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Your best post in the thread... great job.
Context is important, Dave.
You seem to have no grasp of the context of any part of the Bible.
Here, try this for starters:
Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 15:21-28 - New King James Version
A Gentile Shows Her Faith - Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” But He answered her not a...
Jesus said He was not sent "except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
That means no gentiles.
The Body of Christ includes both Jews and Gentiles.
So either Jesus was lying (hint: He wasn't) or something changed between this passage and Paul's ministry.
Jesus hints at the timing which had not yet happened, but which would happen if, consistent with His message, Israel would not repent:
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 13:6-9 - New King James Version
The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree - He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut...
Jesus came for three years to Israel, seeking fruit, but found none. So one year after the crucifixion, about the same time that Stephen was being stoned, which shows Israel's utter rejection of her Messiah, Paul tells us that God cut off unbelieving Israel and turned to working with the Gentiles:
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,And their words to the ends of the world. ” But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,I will move you to anger by a foolish nation. ” But Isaiah is very bold and says:“I was found by those who did not seek Me;I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me. ” But to Israel he says:“All day long I have stretched out My handsTo a disobedient and contrary people. ”
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. ” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:“God has given them a spirit of stupor,Eyes that they should not seeAnd ears that they should not hear,To this very day. ” And David says:“Let their table become a snare and a trap,A stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,And bow down their back always. ” I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. ” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them,When I take away their sins. ” Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 10:14-21, Romans 11:1-32 - New King James Version
Israel Rejects the Gospel - How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of...
This is how we know, for certain, that Jesus' command to "keep My commandments" in John 14 was not directed at the Body of Christ, for one, because the Body of Christ did not exist yet at the time of John 14, and for two, because Jesus was clearly talking to His disciples in the upper room in Jerusalem just before being crucified: John 14 is just after the Last Supper, as per John 13:2.
Dave, Israel had the law, and yet they were some of the most wicked people in history. They did not attain righteousness through the law.
Why are you trying to saddle those in the Body of Christ with something you KNOW cannot bring about righteousness, only condemnation?
Especially when Paul explicitly teaches that if we are in Christ there is NO condemnation.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father. ” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:1-17 - New King James Version
Free from Indwelling Sin - There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do...
We are no longer debtors to the law, but adopted sons of God.
Do you not see the contrast Paul is making?
You keep trying to mash together what Paul is clearly separating.
Thank you Judge Rightly
That was a lot of work. And thank you Right (Yoda) Divider, and last but not least, Clete. Win, loose, or draw I miss debating y'all. We've been here for a long while. There are now many facebook wannabe"s that, in my humble opinion--and you all know how humble I can be, will never compare to this site. I started here in 2005 when I was 54, at the end of this year I will be 75. This site was my second online debate and this site will be where I have my last debate. I have debates on a few other sites but this is by far the best site and best format for debate.
Debate for me has never been about winning, it's about learning. Mid Acts, right or wrong, is worth learning about. I always want to learn about both sides of any issue and not be stuck with only the one I know. The devil's advocate is our best friend against falling into unchecked error. That said we must also allow for respectful disagreement. On this issue I find much that we do agreed on.
I agree with almost everything you just posted in #136.
I agree that Paul is creating a separation just not quite the way you see it. I don't agree that Paul is the prototype for something different than what Jesus and the apostles were preaching and teaching. Jesus made a distinction between the "moral law" and what was not a moral law with in the whole of the Mosaic Law; for you--Mid Acts, it's all or nothing. This is why Jesus says to follow his commandments and not all the commandments in the Mosaic Law, most of which dealt with Temple life and sacrifices, etc. which obviously were no longer needed.
I think God had in mind working with--as you put it, the Gentiles all the time, not because of Israel's rejection but because God intended to create the Church--the body of Christ, as a way to reach the whole world. The calling of the Nation of Israel had been fulfilled with Christ's final sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, so the Temple for sacrifices was no longer needed. Jesus said the Temple was going to be destroyed. The Church replaced the temple, but I believe and, I think you would agree, that God still has a covenant with Abraham to fulfill.
--Dave
That was a lot of work. And thank you Right (Yoda) Divider, and last but not least, Clete. Win, loose, or draw I miss debating y'all. We've been here for a long while. There are now many facebook wannabe"s that, in my humble opinion--and you all know how humble I can be, will never compare to this site. I started here in 2005 when I was 54, at the end of this year I will be 75. This site was my second online debate and this site will be where I have my last debate. I have debates on a few other sites but this is by far the best site and best format for debate.
Debate for me has never been about winning, it's about learning. Mid Acts, right or wrong, is worth learning about. I always want to learn about both sides of any issue and not be stuck with only the one I know. The devil's advocate is our best friend against falling into unchecked error. That said we must also allow for respectful disagreement. On this issue I find much that we do agreed on.
I agree with almost everything you just posted in #136.
I agree that Paul is creating a separation just not quite the way you see it. I don't agree that Paul is the prototype for something different than what Jesus and the apostles were preaching and teaching. Jesus made a distinction between the "moral law" and what was not a moral law with in the whole of the Mosaic Law; for you--Mid Acts, it's all or nothing. This is why Jesus says to follow his commandments and not all the commandments in the Mosaic Law, most of which dealt with Temple life and sacrifices, etc. which obviously were no longer needed.
I think God had in mind working with--as you put it, the Gentiles all the time, not because of Israel's rejection but because God intended to create the Church--the body of Christ, as a way to reach the whole world. The calling of the Nation of Israel had been fulfilled with Christ's final sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, so the Temple for sacrifices was no longer needed. Jesus said the Temple was going to be destroyed. The Church replaced the temple, but I believe and, I think you would agree, that God still has a covenant with Abraham to fulfill.
--Dave
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But you fundamentally don't.
What other way is there?
Jesus taught the law, which was undergirded by grace.
Paul taught grace through faith alone.
The two are diametrically opposed to each other.
Then you disagree with Paul himself:
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 1:12-17 - New King James Version
Glory to God for His Grace - And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of...
"...in me first..."
"...as a pattern to those who are toing to believe on Him for everlasting life."
Are you calling Paul a liar?
Book, chapter, verse, please.
Paul said as much:
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:1-6 - New King James Version
Christian Liberty - Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that...
James said as much:
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder. ” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Bible Gateway passage: James 2:8-13 - New King James Version
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of...
Notice the difference in description of doing so.
Paul calls you a debtor if you keep the law, calls the law a yoke of bondage, and states clearly that Christ will profit you nothing.
James, however, says that if you keep the law, "you do well."
You do realise that the Mosaic Law is also His commandments, yes?
Why do you get to pick and choose which laws you have to follow?
Jesus did not specify which commandments that you must follow beyond "keep My commandments."
Gentiles had always been allowed to come and worship God, so long as they followed Israel's laws. They had to do so according to Israel's customs, and it was NEVER as a one-on-one relationship, but as part of Israel's national covenant with Him.
That's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the kind of relationship Paul teaches.
Book, chapter, verse, please.
The temple Jesus spoke of in John 2:19 was His physical body, which He indeed raised up on the third day.
As for the physical Temple being destroyed in AD 70, its destruction had hery little if anything to do with any sort of any kind of prophecy. It was the unguided act of evil men.
The temple would have been destroyed a LOT sooner had things gone as God planned. But as the Bible typically shows, God rarely gets what He wants, and the plans He had for Israel were left unfulfilled, due to their rejection of Him.
No. The "church" which is the congregation of Israel did not replace anything, nor did the "church" which is the Body of Christ replace anything.
One of that has been put on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles.
Part of that covenant that is currently on hold is the coming of the Kingdom that Jesus preached about.
One that has nothing at all to do with the Body of Christ.
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I have to assume that you mean post #136
Stubborn blindness. Again, Paul is the PATTERN.
1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
G5296 ὑποτύπωσις hupotuposis (hï-po-tï '-pō-sis) n.
1. typification under (after).
2. (concretely) a sketch (figuratively) for imitation.
[from a compound of G5259 and a derivative of G5179]
KJV: form, pattern
Root(s): G5259, G5179
AGAIN, you are making UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS.
Where is your ARGUMENT and your EVIDENCE?
There is no reason that God could not have reached the whole world through Israel had they accepted their Messiah and mission.
More UNSUPPORTED conjecture.
There are many unfulfilled prophecies regarding the nation of Israel and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 2:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
Baloney.... another of your MANY UNSUPPORTED claims. You're like a broken record.
Well.... there you go. How generous of you to agree with the scripture once in a while.
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Indeed
Col 2:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
Paul contrasts what is coming for Israel and what is currently the body of Christ.