ECT Christological Question - Is Jesus really fully man?

[Aner]

I often here the phrase "Jesus is fully man". I wonder if anyone really knows what this means - or is it simply repeated like a mantra?

Here is my question in trying to understand what people mean by that catch-phrase -

Can Jesus fully function without an incarnated deity - just like you, I and all men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity?

To take it a step further - let me explain the issue -

1. If Jesus can NOT fully function without an incarnated deity - like all human beings can - then clearly is fundamentally different than a human being - and the catch-phrase is inaccurate and must be discarded.

2. If Jesus CAN fully function without an incarnated deity... then it appears that we have two Jesus' - one who is a man - and one who is God.

OK - I look forward to your input.

 

[ZacharyB]

An obvious and excellent question!

IMO, the Holy Spirit provided the sperm and/or blood ...
so He would be the Father of Jesus instead of a human.
The main purpose was so Jesus would NOT have the human sin nature,
and thus He could overcome sin and everything else.
If Jesus was fully human, why was the Holy Spirit involved?

For those of us who have actually been born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit,
Jesus has called us to be overcomers as He overcame (Rev 3:21).
With our new nature and the indwelling Spirit, we are fully capable of this!
But, most Western believers today do the opposite:
trust in God's grace and continue sinning!
This false doctrine is straight from the very pits of hell.

And it is simply our "reasonable service" to God (Romans 12:1) to obey!
Yes, true saving faith includes obedience: belief-faith-trust-obedience.
All the way through to the end of our lives!
Care to see the 15 proof verses re: enduring in the faith?

 

[Aner]

Zachary

Thanks for the follow-up. I may have missed it - but can you possibly answer this simple question -

Can Jesus fully function without an incarnated deity - just like you, I and all men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity?

Best

Greg

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Christological Question - Is Jesus really fully man?

I often here the phrase "Jesus is fully man". I wonder if anyone really knows what this means - or is it simply repeated like a mantra?

Here is my question in trying to understand what people mean by that catch-phrase -

Can Jesus fully function without an incarnated deity - just like you, I and all men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity?

To take it a step further - let me explain the issue -

1. If Jesus can NOT fully function without an incarnated deity - like all human beings can - then clearly is fundamentally different than a human being - and the catch-phrase is inaccurate and must be discarded.

2. If Jesus CAN fully function without an incarnated deity... then it appears that we have two Jesus' - one who is a man - and one who is God.

OK - I look forward to your input.

Remember the guy that pulled out in the OT and got killed for it? One of Tamar's unfortunate 2 dead husbands didn't want to make a baby and was killed for it by God. He didn't want his legacy to go to Tamar's first Husband, which was his brother.

This is because he was tampering with Devine DNA. Tamar is part of Jesus's direct, biological lineage.

God tended the DNA of His human temple throughout the OT.

Matthew and Luke reveal this with the lineage of Jesus's adoptive, human father, and Mary.

There is much revelation in the tidbits of each person in Jesus's lineage, but the most beautiful part is that He traces back to Eve and by this, to all of us in a direct way. The Spiritual tie is in the essence of God that was breathed into man and passed to Eve through Adams Rib.

The term, "Fully Man", reveals that Jesus physical body was mortal, though His Spirit was different than yours and mine.

He was Fully God, within a Divinely built temple that started being built at Creation. The Gospel was planned before He physically walked amongst us.

John makes it clear that He was the light and life giver. He makes it clear that through Jesus, all things of Heaven and Earth were made.

Since God wasn't created, we know Jesus was God, and thus couldn't have been created.

Back to the core of the matter, Jesus and the Spirit of All shared a genuine Father and Son relationship, yet Jesus clearly states that to have seen Him is to have seen the Father.

The Father is Glory, Spirit and unseeable as we understand seeing, yet Jesus is the physical manifestation of the Father.

However, Jesus was God in Flesh that was mortal and bound to time.

The Father is not bound by time, but sees all time as one.

Jesus could have taken matters into His own hands and worked amongst us as the Father, but instead, he relinquished His authority to the Father.

I'm getting dizzy, so I need a scripture to anchor this in substance:

Philippians 2:

5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,

6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.
7 Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form,
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. (A solid note here is that this verse actually shows the name of YHWH to be Jesus now, all Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic aside...... Jesus being familiar to us and YHWH being familiar, though some know this as JHVH)

.....to go full ADD, Yehoshewa or Joshua is the actual name of Jesus, but through transliteration and time, we accept Jesus/Yeshewa. He knows what we mean anyways. [emoji6]

-------------------

Jesus was independent and reliant to the Father through humility.

Thus, He was fully God, but fully a man in the Father's eyes.

Jesus was tempted many times by the Devil and the Pharasees to show His true glory, but instead, He relied on His true Father to do the work of the only begotten Son.

Had He powered up, so to speak, He would have failed His purpose. He instead served God and Man to overthrow the Devils power to condemn mankind through disobedience to the Law.

His mortality was Human. His work of surrender to the Father was Human. His Death was Human, but His very soul and Spirit was God.

He was Perfect in every fashion because His perfection was manifested in surrender and humility.

He gloried the Father and mankind with His Love and Humility.

He never glorified Himself, but only the Father gloried the Son for the Son glorying the Father..

This is what fully man and fully God means.




Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Aner]

Thanks for that lengthy bit of thought. I am wondering if you answer my simple question to help me clarify my understanding -

Can Jesus fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I and all men?

Thanks
Aner

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Christological Question - Is Jesus really fully man?

Thanks for that lengthy bit of thought. I am wondering if you answer my simple question to help me clarify my understanding -

Can Jesus fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I and all men?

Thanks
Aner

I've answered this very directly before, but I got slammed for the core of the answer.

Please trust me as I have placed much time into this matter, but in order to do so, we need to first find out if we are speaking the same language about the physical composition of a Human Being.

I need a baseline from you for context, to effectively answer you. I will indeed take this on, but it takes questions to get to the answer.

Incarnated Deity suggests that Jesus was a complete separation from God.

I don't see this as a complete foundation to lay my answer on.

Perhaps if we started with the basics.

Do you believe that the breath of God that was breathed into Adam was an essence of God that generated the Human, individualistic Soul?

In other words, was the very spark of God transferred to Adam as the essential provision for the human soul? Not that Adam was Indwelled with God, but was there something breathed into Adam that belongs to God and is core to all human Souls existing?


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Jesus us fully man.
Jesus is fully God.
Next question.

 

[Aner]

I've answered this very directly before, but I got slammed for the core of the answer.

Interesting question - frankly, I really don't know for sure what the answer is. However, I sort of doubt it.

I am curious why you don't provide a straight answer to this simple question - I have no interest in slamming anyone - simply to work through the assumptions. So far I have never received an answer from anyone.

 

[Aner]

Jesus us fully man.
Jesus is fully God.
Next question.

What do you mean "fully man" ?

Your answer to this question would help clarify -

Can Jesus fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I and all men?

BTW - I was curious in light of your meme - re Dems and high taxes - can you tell me why Obama lowered taxes on the middle class?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Interesting question - frankly, I really don't know for sure what the answer is. However, I sort of doubt it.

I am curious why you don't provide a straight answer to this simple question - I have no interest in slamming anyone - simply to work through the assumptions. So far I have never received an answer from anyone.

I will give you a straight answer tomorrow.

I apologize for being difficult.

I will pm you.

Fair?

Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[jamie]

Can Jesus fully function without an incarnated deity - just like you, I and all men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity?

Yes. It is written, "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." (Hebrews 2:17-18 ESV)

God cannot be tempted nor does he tempt anyone. (James 1:13-14)

 

[Aner]

Very fair - thanks for the follow-up.

 

[Aner]

Yes. It is written, "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." (Hebrews 2:17-18 ESV)

God cannot be tempted nor does he tempt anyone. (James 1:13-14)

Jamie

Thanks for the follow-up. So in response to the question - can Jesus function independently of an incarnated deity, you responded "Yes". You provided a basis - a passage in Hebrews (a great passage btw!)

Admittedly, I do not know the sum of your Christology, so I am going to move ahead as if you maintain the traditional hypostatic union - and acknowledge I may be totally incorrect.

Here is what I am challenged by if Jesus CAN function independently of an incarnated deity. Presumably we have the deity Jesus - a divine person - who obviously can independently function PLUS we have the man Jesus - a human person - who can function independent of the divine person (as you claimed) - now I end up with two Jesus'....two persons - a divine person and a human person. However, as I read scripture, I only find one person standing at the right hand of God - one person who is our savior and mediator, etc.

Can you help me with this?

Thanks

Aner

 

[csuguy]

I often here the phrase "Jesus is fully man". I wonder if anyone really knows what this means - or is it simply repeated like a mantra?

Here is my question in trying to understand what people mean by that catch-phrase -

Can Jesus fully function without an incarnated deity - just like you, I and all men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity?

To take it a step further - let me explain the issue -

1. If Jesus can NOT fully function without an incarnated deity - like all human beings can - then clearly is fundamentally different than a human being - and the catch-phrase is inaccurate and must be discarded.

2. If Jesus CAN fully function without an incarnated deity... then it appears that we have two Jesus' - one who is a man - and one who is God.

OK - I look forward to your input.

I think you might get more discussion if you backup and explain what you are asking in more detail. For example: what do you mean when you say that men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity? And why would Jesus be limited without an incarnated deity? In your theology, is Jesus not the incarnated deity itself? What then would it mean to speak of Jesus without himself?

As you can see, I, at least, would need some information to follow your train of thought in asking these questions.

 

[jamie]

now I end up with two Jesus'....two persons - a divine person and a human person.

Jesus surrendered his immortality to become human like any other human, he became one of us.

So by what means did Jesus do miracles?

Peter explained, "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know..." (Acts 2:22)

It was the Father who performed miracles through the man Jesus just like he did through Peter, John, Paul, etc.

However, Jesus had said we must be born again of the Spirit. As a mortal Jesus obviously included himself as needing spiritual birth. Jesus was born again by a resurrection from the dead. He was born again as an immortal, the first of the firstfruits. (1 Corinthians 15:21-23)

Paul explained, "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." (Colossians 1:18)

Jesus died as a human but was resurrected into the kingdom of God by our Father. Paul had said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Jesus died as a man but was resurrected as God by his God and our God. It's why we were born, but Jesus was the first to be born again.

 

[ZacharyB]

Can Jesus fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I and all men?

I think you mean ...
Could Jesus have fully functioned as a normal human being if He was not fully God?

Of course He could have ...
but only better, because He did not have our inherited sin nature!

However, then He wouldn't be fully functioning like us
because He wouldn't be constantly sinning like us.

 

[Aner]

Jesus surrendered his immortality to become human like any other human, he became one of us.

So by what means did Jesus do miracles?

Peter explained, "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know..." (Acts 2:22)

It was the Father who performed miracles through the man Jesus just like he did through Peter, John, Paul, etc.

Jesus died as a man but was resurrected as God by his God and our God. It's why we were born, but Jesus was the first to be born again.

Jamie

Thanks for the follow-up.

I am sort of confused. Originally you told me that Jesus fully functioned WITHOUT an incarnated deity. Now I hear that "Jesus became human" which I don't understand at all what that means. Did the divine person - a person of God - simple cease to exist - actually disappear. God did actually not only die - but simply ceased to exist? What happened to the divine person?

BTW - I do understand the great Acts text which you mentioned - that God attested to a man of Nazareth by miracles. The concept of Jesus being a man seems very clear and formally taught in the Word of God.

Best

Aner

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.

Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

There seems to be some issue of thinking there's some distinction between fully being a man and being a special man. Both Einstein and an idiot are fully man, though perhaps Einstein came from a better gene pool or whatever, as some are born with greater aptitudes, we all know, just as babies can have vastly different personalities. But these things don't have any bearing that negates all came from their mother's womb, are flesh human beings. You could say Jesus Christ had better genes, as it were, being fathered by the Holy Spirit, not the sinful line of Adam, as well as Jesus Christ having the Holy Spirit without measure, but like Einstein's unique aptitudes didn't make him another sort of being not fully a flesh man, neither did the Lord Jesus' unique attributes make Him less a flesh man, even though He was God in the flesh. There's no such thing as a part man, born of a woman, that doesn't bleed if you cut him, breath air, need food and water, put it this way. And there are heresies that include denial of Christ's humanity, like denial of His deity, something cultish to watch out for. Hope that helps.

 

[Aner]

I think you mean ...
Could Jesus have fully functioned as a normal human being if He was not fully God?

Of course He could have ...
but only better, because He did not have our inherited sin nature!

However, then He wouldn't be fully functioning like us
because He wouldn't be constantly sinning like us.

Zach

Thanks for the follow-up.

If I understand right, you acknowledge the man Christ Jesus COULD have fully functioned independent of an incarnated deity - not only just like you and I, but better than you and I. Is that right?

Here is what I am challenged by - if the man Christ Jesus can fully function independent of an incarnated deity - and the divine person God the Son (assuming your believe in this entity) - could fully function as well - we would have two Jesus'.... However, the scriptures teach that there is only one mediator between man and God - the man Christ Jesus - and we see only one Jesus standing at the right hand of God. In other words, it appears we only see one Jesus fully functioning in scripture.

Can you provide some clarification here?

Thanks

Aner