ChristianForums banned Christ.

Status
Not open for further replies.

oftenbuzzard

New member
NobodyImportant said:
Yes, if someone is doing something decidedly unbiblical, especially a fellow believer, you should alert them to their ways. However, this should be done in love, not judgement so as to remain a friend and helper. Condemnation is not the goal.

Compare your approach with the approach of Jesus in John 8:

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.

45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.

50 "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste of death.’

53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"

54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
 

Sozo

New member
godrulz said:
Paul urged others to follow him as He followed Christ. He was capable and godly, in tune with the Spirit. This did not make him infallible. Sometimes in I Cor. he spoke from the Lord. Other times he implied it was his opinion but he thought he had the mind of Christ in the matter.

There were probably times in Paul's life that he was not bang on. This did not become Scripture, or it was recorded as narrative rather than revelation.

We are to follow Paul and Christ, but this does not mean we might not be in the flesh or presumptious at times. There is much gossip and judgment in the churches (including the first century church) that was rebuked rather than commended by Jesus or Paul (Rev. 2; 3; I Cor.).


But you basically said that Jesus was qualified in His assessment of men's hearts and beliefs. If Paul was also qualified, then so are we. Otherwise, Paul would not have told us to rebuke others as he has.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
NobodyImportant said:
Yes, if someone is doing something decidedly unbiblical, especially a fellow believer, you should alert them to their ways. However, this should be done in love, not judgement so as to remain a friend and helper. Condemnation is not the goal.

How do you know if something is "decidedly unbiblical" if you aren't making that judgement?

Judgement is not wrong, incorrect judgement is wrong. "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." - Jesus

Welcome to TOL :)
 

~Agnostic~

New member
Knight said:
I was speaking of double standards and I said....

I wasn't calling you a pervert nor was I calling anyone else a pervert.
You were referring to perverts in general rather than specifically.

I was merely using an example to demonstrate our bias
An example of your bias against perverts.

and our acceptance of double standards.
If mayhap perverts become involved. Do these double standards still apply in the absence of perverts? Or are such double standards then removed?
 

~Agnostic~

New member
GuySmiley said:
You've never heard before?
I've heard different biblical interpretations, yes.

Rom 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV
It is not my perspective that verbal confession or heart belief save a person's soul. I would interpret this verse as merely validating that verbal confession and heart belief are mere byproducts of a person who is already saved. But the two elements have no saving power in and of themselves.

In other words, a dog may bark and eat dogfood, but barking and eating dogfood do not make a dog a dog. The dog was first already a dog, and therefore happens to bark and eat dogfood. Barking and eating dogfood does not make one a dog. For anyone can choose to bark and eat dogfood, even if they are not a dog.

Likewise, anyone can confess to be a Christian, and believe in their heart that they are a Christian, but this doesn't necessarily make them a Christian. They may be or they may not be. These elements have no saving power, but are merely expressions of an already existent Christian. But sometimes non-Christians do these things as well.

I believe Jesus was the Son of God, that He died for my sins, that He was raised from the dead, and I'm confessing that to you now (with a keyboard, does that count?).
Why do you believe these things? Because the bible says so?
 

godrulz

New member
oftenbuzzard said:
Compare your approach with the approach of Jesus in John 8:

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.

45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.

50 "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste of death.’

53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"

54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

Why is everyone quoting passages about Jesus and Paul dealing with rebellious unbelievers to justify harshness, ignorance, rigidity, divisiveness, etc. when dealing with fellow God-fearing, God-loving believers in Christ.

Christianforums (I do not know much about them) is not tantamount to the Satanic Bible. Other verses show how believers are to have diversity within unity and disagree with love, not wrath.

There is a difference between a believer dealing with an unbeliever or false religion/god and a believer dealing with a believer over controversial aspects of the faith once for all entrusted to the saints.

Arguing about angels on a pin or synergism vs monergism is not the same as dealing with the occult.
 

godrulz

New member
Sozo said:
But you basically said that Jesus was qualified in His assessment of men's hearts and beliefs. If Paul was also qualified, then so are we. Otherwise, Paul would not have told us to rebuke others as he has.

Our authority to rebuke is in the name of Jesus consistent with His Word. Jesus is the God-Man and was perfect since He is judge of the universe.

Paul was a Spirit-filled, but fallible man who judged in the name of Jesus according to His Word. We are to do the same thing as Paul. The authority or wisdom is not inherent in us. I Cor. reminds us to test the prophets, those who speak the mind of God. The spirit of prophecy was subject to the prophets. It was possible that there could be a mix of spirit and flesh in their prophetic utterances (Corinthian local church prophets vs OT prophets that were added to the canon of Scripture). If a prophet or tongues/interpretation person spoke out in the flesh (possible, hence Paul's correction about the misuse of spiritual gifts in I Cor. 12-14), then they were to be corrected to line up with the Word of God.

I am trying to point out that we are not omniscient. We should have the mind of Christ through prayer and the Word, but there is much going on in and outside the Church that is done in His name, but is contrary to His Word/revelation. Paul rebuked believers for judging without knowing all the facts and the motives and hearts of men. You are married. Surely you have misjudged your spouse of kids or neighbour at some point and had to retract the judgment when things were clarified? We also have been misunderstood and judged wrongly by others. This is why Paul pleaded for unity and for believers to get along (Phil. 4; I Cor.= divisions in the church). Even Paul in Acts disputed with other Apostles over things. Conflict happens in the Church and any relationship. This would not happen if we were sock puppets of God and infallible in all our thinking. There would be no theologyonline, because we would all agree and all get along.

Paul reminds us that we see through a glass darkly. Until we see Him face to face, our knowledge and wisdom is a work in progress.

This does not mean that we cannot and should not judge in His authority according to His Word. Let us not forget the delegated authority of leaders in the Church who must give account. We are exhorted to submit to them in the Lord and not make their responsibility onerous.
 

godrulz

New member
Nineveh said:
How do you know if something is "decidedly unbiblical" if you aren't making that judgement?

Judgement is not wrong, incorrect judgement is wrong. "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." - Jesus

Welcome to TOL :)


Yes, that is the key. Thx for saying more in one sentence than my diatribe.
 

Sozo

New member
godrulz said:
Why is everyone quoting passages about Jesus and Paul dealing with rebellious unbelievers to justify harshness, ignorance, rigidity, divisiveness, etc. when dealing with fellow God-fearing, God-loving believers in Christ.
That is exactly what is to be determined.
There is a difference between a believer dealing with an unbeliever or false religion/god and a believer dealing with a believer over controversial aspects of the faith once for all entrusted to the saints.
Why? One group needs to be presented the faith, and the other needs to be examined if he is indeed in the faith.
Arguing about angels on a pin or synergism vs monergism is not the same as dealing with the occult.
Who is arguing about that?

Is faith vs works a legitimate reason to question someones identity as a believer?
 

godrulz

New member
~Agnostic~ said:
You were referring to perverts in general rather than specifically.

An example of your bias against perverts.

If mayhap perverts become involved. Do these double standards still apply in the absence of perverts? Or are such double standards then removed?

I am a Christian and get called a pervert by people here. They do not mean sexual pervert, but one who distorts their version of the truth :(
 

~Agnostic~

New member
godrulz said:
I am a Christian and get called a pervert by people here.
I'm sorry to hear that. I find it rather perverted of others that they would venture to call you a pervert.

They do not mean sexual pervert, but one who distorts their version of the truth :(
I find it difficult to distort somebody else's version of the truth. Oftentimes they have merely failed to communicate their personalized flavor of truth clearly.
 

godrulz

New member
Sozo said:
That is exactly what is to be determined. Why? One group needs to be presented the faith, and the other needs to be examined if he is indeed in the faith.Who is arguing about that?

Is faith vs works a legitimate reason to question someones identity as a believer?


Arguing over Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism (assuming each proponent received Christ by faith apart from works and is 'born again') is not an issue of seeing if they are in the faith or not (though it can be...I know religious Calvinists who later were transformed by a relationship with Christ). Wesley and Whitefield's dialogue and ministries is a model for how polarized Christians should work through our differences (both were used mightily by God in the harvest though they had theological extremes).

Mid-Acts people say that some early Christians were saved by faith + works. I disagree with this common position by respected members here.

The Mormons and JWs who trust faith + works (and a false god) need to be exposed. We need to defend and proclaim the faith.

Legalistic Christians (SDAs...some, not all are saved) need to be challenged about grace and freedom in Christ. Most denominations have sister sects that are legalistic (Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.). In reality, they are not saved by works, but they sure add a lot of rules that put believers in bondage.

Based on Galatians (Judaizer heresy), if someone is trusting works for salvation, they have a false gospel. You perceive me in this category. Once again, the balance between faith and works is found in Eph. 2:8-10. We are saved by grace through faith, apart from works or law. We are kept the same way. However, saving faith will bear the fruit of good works subsequent to salvation. This is the point of James and his assertions about faith and works (his foundation was still Rom. 4 faith alone for justification before God; he expands on the practical implications of a living vs dead faith).
 

godrulz

New member
~Agnostic~ said:
I'm sorry to hear that. I find it rather perverted of others that they would venture to call you a pervert.

I find it difficult to distort somebody else's version of the truth. Oftentimes they have merely failed to communicate their personalized flavor of truth clearly.


Are you related to yoda? Wise, UR.

However, the cross of Christ makes our wisdom foolish. You can have common sense and still die in your sins, condemned by God. Have you considered giving your life back to its rightful owner. Being 'born again' is a command, not a option (Jn. 3:3 you must...). There are consequences for rejecting His love and truth. :king:
 

~Agnostic~

New member
godrulz said:
Are you related to yoda? Wise, UR.
My ego stands inflated.

However, the cross of Christ makes our wisdom foolish.
And now it stands deflated.

You can have common sense and still die in your sins, condemned by God.
Are you referring to the Law of Moses?

Have you considered giving your life back to its rightful owner.
I'm not aware that the rightful owner ever lost my life. Seems clumsy.

Being 'born again' is a command, not a option (Jn. 3:3 you must...).
How are you interpreting the term 'born again' in the context of this verse? I believe that it is referring to the physical resurrection and immortality of the saints. Do you have a different interpretation?

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
(NAS95)

There are consequences for rejecting His love and truth. :king:
Such as? If you don't love me, I will smite your bones to dust.
 

godrulz

New member
The new birth is new life, abundant life, eternal life received now and carrying on into the future. Those who receive Christ become children of God (Jn. 1:12) and have eternal life now (I Jn. 5:11-13). They are indwelt by the Spirit and transformed into the image of Christ. The future bodily resurrection (glorified body) is the culmination of the process of salvation: justification/regeneration/new birth, sanctification (holiness), and glorification (resurrection). It deals with the penalty of sin (j), the power of sin (s), and the presence of sin (g).
 

~Agnostic~

New member
godrulz said:
The new birth is new life, abundant life, eternal life received now and carrying on into the future. Those who receive Christ become children of God (Jn. 1:12)
Just a small point of contention here. It is my interpretation of scripture that all human beings are children of God (assuming that we're looking to scripture as an authority source).

Ac 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Ac 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

And although there are references to children of the devil in scripture, we may nonetheless surmise that such is merely allegory, insofar as the devil has never actually impregnated any human being (at least as far as I'm aware).

Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

and have eternal life now (I Jn. 5:11-13). They are indwelt by the Spirit and transformed into the image of Christ. The future bodily resurrection (glorified body) is the culmination of the process of salvation: justification/regeneration/new birth, sanctification (holiness), and glorification (resurrection). It deals with the penalty of sin (j), the power of sin (s), and the presence of sin (g).
 

oftenbuzzard

New member
godrulz said:
The new birth is new life, abundant life, eternal life received now and carrying on into the future. Those who receive Christ become children of God (Jn. 1:12) and have eternal life now (I Jn. 5:11-13). They are indwelt by the Spirit and transformed into the image of Christ. The future bodily resurrection (glorified body) is the culmination of the process of salvation: justification/regeneration/new birth, sanctification (holiness), and glorification (resurrection). It deals with the penalty of sin (j), the power of sin (s), and the presence of sin (g).


Dang, I like yer style.

Good stuff !!!
:the_wave:
 

godrulz

New member
Sozo said:


Cmon...I think the post is generally succinct and agreed on by most believers (or are you referring to your perceptions of what you think I believe about the specific concepts?).

The newbie does not have to agree with everything I have ever said or will ever say. I am sure he will have discernment as needed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top