ECT Cheap or Costly Grace?
- Thread starter Cross Reference
- Start date
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Even if sinless perfection were possible in this life, what would that look like in light of humility?
Also, I don't agree that the goal is sinlessness. That may be a part of it all, but holiness encompasses sinlessness but goes well beyond it.
Cross Reference
New member
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The goal is being made into the image and likeness of Christ.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
I John 3:2-3
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor 3:17-18
EDIT : But note that it is not our goal in the sense that we are the ones actively doing it.
Cross Reference
New member
nikolai_42
Well-known member
In the same way Jesus meant "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father", so are we to be made like Him (see the verses in 1 John I quoted)
Dividing Christ's Deity and His humanity in that way is not what scripture does. The flesh itself profits nothing. He took on flesh - it was still Him of whom this was spoken :
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:29-30
So He was either an eternal man or manifestation of God. And as for the working :
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
I Thessalonians 2:13
Cross Reference
New member
Image/likeness = complete attributes, i.e., Spiritual, disposition, affinities, righteousness, holiness, mercy, grace, Truth, affections, etc. Shall I go on?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So far so good...
Cross Reference
New member
So how come your thinking doesn't move in that direction that when I say a Christian doesn't sin, you might have an inkling as to what I am inferring.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Because when one says "a Christian doesn't sin", the implications are not the same as when one says "a Christian is one who is being made into the likeness of God". Ultimately, sin is an issue that is dealt with, but the idea that a man is sinless is far more an external assertion (usually) than being conformed to the image of Christ. One can take sinlessness and start to point out those that don't meet that criteria (in their understanding, that is) but when you start to talk about a larger goal, the concept of testing the fruit becomes more complex and nothing like what many want to do. While we shouldn't tolerate sin, our protestations do nothing to limit it because it is a matter of the heart at its core. And a man such as King David showed the great ugliness of it in someone with whom God had close fellowship. Man judges after the outward appearance but God after the inward man of the heart.
Cross Reference
New member
You are wording me to death. A Christian is one who strives to be perfect in the Father. With a Spiritual arrangement with himself he will not 'knowingly' sin and by the same arrangement will his conscience remain clear of presumption to worship God as a co-extention of his life. That is a Christian.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Okay...that's part of it - though the striving for perfection needs some fleshing out. How does affect holiness?
Is it just that a Christian tries not to sin? Is it all divided up like that? Try not to sin...check. Be holy...check. Worship acceptably....check. etc....
The Law was good. It had correct statements but we don't lean on it anymore because it never made the hearer any better. Likewise, if we are in Christ, our lives should never be sectioned off like that so that we are pursuing sinlessness as a somewhat separate thing from holiness etc... Otherwise, how is that different from moralism?
I have to sign off now, so I'll leave it at that.
The regenerate do willingly and with full knowledge of what they are doing sin, but they cannot live in that sin. Psalm 119:176 The regenerate have an amazing ability to justify what they do on occasion and until they are granted repentance they are sometimes left in their filth until they hate it and hate themselves.
Last edited:
Cross Reference
New member
Cross Reference
New member
Which is false __ incomplete at best:
"By way of comparison, the Calvinistic view of evangelism is that it is made easier because salvation isn't depended on man's actions."
Scriptures state that Redemption was not dependent upon an action of man. However, for man to establish himself upon/in that "New Rock foundation", he must first "see it" to desire it before he can "enter into it". That is man's part __NOT God's. The realization of “God’s forgiveness” in the matter of Redemption should lead to a serious following of Christ __ again, something man must do and in a serious way for it to accomplish its purpose..
Last edited:
revpete
New member
I think The Bible teaches that the goodness of God is good extended to all: Matt 5:45. However, the grace of God is for Christians only, by grace we have been saved Eph 2:8 and we continue and are kept by His grace, 1Cor 15:10.
Pete
Cross Reference
New member
You mean IF we continue we are kept by His Grace, right?
Last edited:
Maybe you've had a cushy life. If that's the case, good for you. Ac 9:16, 20:23, 24
See:
Accepting the Judge (right click, open) by Timothy Keller
Last edited:
Is the purchasing power of Messiah's blood cheap (insufficient to pay the debt)?
Or is the blood of Messiah costly (sufficient in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy the wrath of God against sin in our place)?