ECT Cheap or Costly Grace?

[Lon]

Lon, i should say, i have yet to "look up Mad" anywhere, i plan to research calvin. and "armenian" ? i'm only wise in what i read and understand through Prayer and thought. i just object to blanket statements of inclusion, as so far here, i agree with the MAD core

That makes sense. I 'think' I have them correctly on these, but as I said, I'm more than willing to correct my assessment if I have them wrong.

I'll look at which is and isn't true for you:

1) MAD - Once Saved Always Saved
T/F? I believe true is correct.

ok "it might not be true for me". judgment from you, conversation, sure.

Judgement? No, they will tell you they are OSAS. This one is absolutely true of MAD. Has to be in fact. I'd think every one of them would come to my defense on this. There is no judgment that's intentional.

even those who reject Him [after conversion
T/F? It 'might' not be true of you. I think it needs some conversation if no.

rejecting after "conversion" - these are terms that don't make sense, although possible. contradictory, because REJECTING doesn't jive.
"most" MAD ? i'm quite sure Fruit is abundant, how can i know ?

As it pertains to one who is truly saved, their works after cannot invalidate His Saving work. This is very much a OSAS position. I do recognize it may not be yours. Perhaps a few more MADists would disagree as well, but it is certainly a part of OSAS dogma. There are two positions on this, one lite, which you seem to be, and one classic or default. Most are classic on this.

fruit nowhere near the conversation
T/F? Most MAD have not/will not entertain the conversation regarding fruit around the topic of salvation.

define "anathema" and Paul discusses Salvation best - atrol:

Just that they do not ever want works/fruit entering the conversation when regarding salvation. The reason why is because salvation is completely by grace through faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else. Talk of self-work diminishes the importance and essential necessity of His. MAD proponents take that very seriously.

 

[patrick jane]

That makes sense. I 'think' I have them correctly on these, but as I said, I'm more than willing to correct my assessment if I have them wrong.

I'll look at which is and isn't true for you:

Judgement? No, they will tell you they are OSAS. This one is absolutely true of MAD. Has to be in fact. I'd think every one of them would come to my defense on this. There is no judgment that's intentional.


As it pertains to one who is truly saved, their works after cannot invalidate His Saving work. This is very much a OSAS position. I do recognize it may not be yours. Perhaps a few more MADists would disagree as well, but it is certainly a part of OSAS dogma. There are two positions on this, one lite, which you seem to be, and one classic or default. Most are classic on this.


Just that they do not ever want works/fruit entering the conversation when regarding salvation. The reason why is because salvation is completely by grace through faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else. Talk of self-work diminishes the importance and essential necessity of His. MAD proponents take that very seriously.

then i am MAD. because fruit has no bearing, however, it is produced. not "works" - FRUIT. huge difference. OSAS. yes. for me, and i can only speak for myself, because Christ cannot reject Himself nor can i. now splitting hairs is OT, because if i "turn into" a mass murderer or cause wanton evil from this point on, i can't say. pointless analogy. that's the problem with anti-mad folks. they can't believe it - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

That makes sense. I 'think' I have them correctly on these, but as I said, I'm more than willing to correct my assessment if I have them wrong.

I'll look at which is and isn't true for you:

Judgement? No, they will tell you they are OSAS. This one is absolutely true of MAD. Has to be in fact. I'd think every one of them would come to my defense on this. There is no judgment that's intentional.


As it pertains to one who is truly saved, their works after cannot invalidate His Saving work. This is very much a OSAS position. I do recognize it may not be yours. Perhaps a few more MADists would disagree as well, but it is certainly a part of OSAS dogma. There are two positions on this, one lite, which you seem to be, and one classic or default. Most are classic on this.


Just that they do not ever want works/fruit entering the conversation when regarding salvation. The reason why is because salvation is completely by grace through faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else. Talk of self-work diminishes the importance and essential necessity of His. MAD proponents take that very seriously.

real quick, maybe this is key. i see folks combining WORKS with FRUIT. not the same. i will not equate the 2 together

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Patrick Jane . . .

Do not think you can score points by simply neg repping my posts.

If you disagree, or possess better theology than what I stated above, be a man, and post your disagreement and better theology.

Neg reps are cowardly and exhibit spiritual weakness, IMO.

Patrick is MAD and is also in idolatry.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

LA

 

[patrick jane]

Patrick is MAD and is also in idolatry.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

LA

look who just rolled out of bed - atrol:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No Holy Spirit . . no Sanctification.

No Sanctification . . no Justification.

No Justification . . no forgiveness or grace.

No forgiveness and grace . . no salvation.

Is that clear?

and no grace if not coming before the Throne of Grace to receive it from Christ.

'Grace did not come via Paul.


Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Nang, you also must remember (according to Calvinist belief) the "Unchosen"
are so "Depraved" that they cannot/will not, seek after Holiness?

there are elements of truth in Calvinism which you would do well to consider and not rule out of hand because you idolize Paul.

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

"Cheap" grace is the belief that Justification is worked without resultant Sanctification, and such that believe that error are not in Christ.

Cheap grace presumes upon sanctification. That is the doctrine of Calvin.

 

[Cross Reference]

Whoever has no rule over his own spirit is like a city broken down, without walls (Pr 25:28).

This is a true statement that the writer assumes one can rule without any Spiritual enablement. I would agree because God warned Cain of the issue. Gen 4:7 KJV.

 

[Cross Reference]

I disagree.

That is unfortunate for you.

There was and is only one unique, Christ, sent into this world; born as the God/man, Jesus: God the eternally generated Son, come in flesh as the promised Seed of woman.

God the Son, Eternally generated?? Where did that nonsense come from? The Word was with God and was God. By Him were ALL things created. He was NO Son. God "generated" no Trinity for Himself. What He did create was the means for having a vast family of sons with Adam purposed to be the progenitor, whose name would have been changed had he made the cut.

You also can't possibly believe this as well: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV) You obviously possess something less and therefore cannot ever call Jesus your elder Brother.

Regenerated sinners never become equally Divine; even though in Christ they "partake" of His divine Spirit . . . yet in glory they will be creatures . . . lessor than their Creator.

You obviously must believe this prayer of Jesus was silly:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." John 17:20-24 (KJV)

Christians are not "little Christs."

So any attempt at being conformed to His image, the true working out of our salvation, is foolishness?

 

[serpentdove]

[Unsure of salvation] Sounds like you are .

Better get that issue settled sooner rather than later.

Jesus loves you (Jn 3:16). Jesus is willing to save you (2 Pe 3:9). Repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30). Believe (Mk 9:23).

You better tuck that in

 

[serpentdove]

[Whoever has no rule over his own spirit is like a city broken down, without walls (Pr 25:28).] This is a true statement that the writer assumes one can rule without any Spiritual enablement...

The psalmist needed God. So do we. He must be in our heart. Is he your all in all? Eph 4:6

The spirit of a man. "Characteristics of, in man: Center of emotions (1 Kin. 21:5), Source of passions (Ezek. 3:14), Cause of volitions [will] (Prov. 16:32), Subject to divine influence (Deut. 2:30; Is. 19:14)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 589). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

 

[Cross Reference]

The psalmist needed God. So do we. He must be in our heart. Is he your all in all? Eph 4:6

The spirit of a man. "Characteristics of, in man: Center of emotions (1 Kin. 21:5), Source of passions (Ezek. 3:14), Cause of volitions [will] (Prov. 16:32), Subject to divine influence (Deut. 2:30; Is. 19:14)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 589). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

You mean the soul of man __ not his spirit. The soul of man is who he is and he is responsible for keeping it clean. Love TO God only makes it easier.

 

[serpentdove]

You mean the soul of man __ not his spirit...

Animals have a soul (Mt 10:31). Man uniquely has a spirit (Gen. 9:6, 1 Cor. 2:11, Eccl. 12:7; Jas 2:26). We communicate with God through our spirit. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth (Jn 16:13) [emphasis mine].

The soul of man is who he is and he is responsible for keeping it clean...

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded (Jas 4:8).

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever (1 Pe 1:22–23).

 

[nikolai_42]

God the Son was the Body, begotten of God, born of Mary __not before.

At the risk of being repetitive...

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:29-30

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:5

Unless the one praying to the Father is not the same one John the Baptist saw and referenced as the Lamb of God ("...slain from the foundation of the earth..." Rev 13:8) then He certainly was ... before. Not manifested until 2000 years ago, but was before.

 

[serpentdove]

People are vain, prone to pride of life, want to believe they're special, have some lease on truth others don't have, and also wish to mold God in their image, to suit their prejudices, which is silly, the creature dictating the Creator.

There are some things in the Bible I don't like, would have different. It is at this point I realize how ignorant I am, to not see, understand some things, which are inherent to the mind of very God, and, therefore, right and proper. There is only truth, which doesn't involve wishful thinking or philosophies of man, the delusions of man, therefore, worthless. Our lack of understanding, kicking against truth, is not of faith and even proof of our fallibility and foolishness, see what I mean?

Scripture should be read with a completely open mind that seeks "Thy will, not my will," and this regardless our limited thinking. Anything else is to set out a welcome mat to gross error. Yes, the Hebrew and Greek, in the hands of the prejudicial, will usually translate to "what I want it to mean."

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

[How can you be forgiven for sins not yet committed?] Naah. He believes his sins are justified beforehand and isn't worried about any he may commit.

:noway: Perhaps you are reacting to another post. In this post he seems to be willing to let God be God. He doesn't know it all (none of us do) and that's ok.

See:

It’s Okay if We Don’t Understand the Whole Bible

...How 'bout you? You feel that way, as well? That's what cheap grace is all about.

Your sins are not forgiven prior to repentance (Jn 3:18, Rom. 5:17–21, Mk 1:4).

 

[revpete]

You IF we continue we are kept by His Grace, right?

Yes, we will continue BECAUSE we are kept by His grace!

Pete

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, we will continue BECAUSE we are kept by His grace!

Pete

So "IF" means nothing. Take that verse out. We can live like the world and it won't matter.

 

[Cross Reference]

Maybe you've had a cushy life. If that's the case, good for you. Ac 9:16, 20:23, 24

See:

Accepting the Judge (right click, open) by Timothy Keller

re: Accepting the judge

So many words spoken no one will remember. The man [Keller] is an empty shell.

 

[Lon]

real quick, maybe this is key. i see folks combining WORKS with FRUIT. not the same. i will not equate the 2 together

That's a good distinction for discussions and meaning. :up: