Nang
TOL Subscriber
Explain please, why you think the Holy Spirit indwells unbelievers.
ECT Cheap or Costly Grace?
- Thread starter Cross Reference
- Start date
Explain please, why you think the Holy Spirit indwells unbelievers.
Cross Reference
New member
No. Your passage reference is not applicable to this we are discussing but to other petitions not requiring forgiveness.
If grace is seen as a doctrine, an offshoot of the love of God, as a concept then, intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins. That's cheap.
You should know whether or not you are a disciple of Jesus Christ. The evidence will be in your heart, the revelation of His indwelling Life.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
If I may share my thoughts on this?
I believe that all our sins: past, present, and future are legally forgiven and we are justified once and for all, by the cross work of Jesus Christ. In the eyes of God, and because of the legal rendering and imputation of Christ's righteousness to our record, we are pardoned from the earlier condemnation and death sentence which was our wages deserved because of our sins.
However, there is the practical instruction from Paul to reckon ourselves as dead to sin, and I believe this is daily worked in our earthly lives, through avoiding temptations, confessions of failings and wrongs, forgiving others, praying for guidance, etc. It is not that we have to ask daily for forensic forgiveness (Justification), but we are led to practice conforming to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit (Sanctification), our hearts, minds, and wills desire to be holy as He is holy. We know, even as Christians, we will stumble and fall short of HIS righteousness, but we still want to live according to His will and word . . . and because the law of sin remains in our members . . . prayer is our practical means to reckon it non-functional in our lives. Prayer is part of praxis and it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and encourages us to pray about our sins.
Does this make sense to anyone else but me?
Who is it that works horror and fear in the hearts of the unregenerate soul prior to conversion? There is only one person that I've read of that actually understood Romans 8:15 and that was John Newton ''Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved''. The self same Spirit works the slavish fear under law as works the blessedness and comfort of a life under grace.
This alone make a laughing stock of free will.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Thank you, and I agree with this supernatural drawing of the soul to faith Christ worked by His Holy Spirit.
However, the drawing is not the same as the Holy Spirit indwelling and sealing, which happens only after regeneration. Right?
Cross Reference
New member
Not me. It is contradictory and screams of cheap grace you believe does everything.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
So, what do you call it?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If I understand what you are getting at, I disagree. Jesus very simply said this about the command to forgive :
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Luke 17:3-4
The doctrine is simple - you don't presume to have what you don't ask for. If it is given to you without asking, that's fine, but you don't have because you don't ask. It really isn't very deep doctrine, but then I believe that's because it's a pretty fundamental principle of interacting with anyone.
So as regards forgiveness and salvation, if you - as one in Christ - don't seek forgiveness for sin because you have been already sealed, what does that say about your heart? There are people who walk around with the attitude "I'm a child of the King" and wear it as a badge of pre-eminence. It is, in a sense, but not in the way the world looks at pre-eminence. Rather, if we are in Christ, we realize that our pre-eminence is hidden - whoever wishes to be greatest in the Kingdom must be servant of all.
So the reason I quoted those scriptures was to point out that petitioning is a basic spiritual principle - not even unique to the Bible. Religions around the world pray. It's not generally necessary to tell someone what the basic idea of prayer is because it is ingrained in fallen humanity. What comes with faith in the Savior is the humility to bow before Him - to approach Him and ask for what we need. "If my people, who are called by MY NAME, will humble themselves and pray etc..." recognizes that principle that is fundamental to approaching God. But to simply not ask because you are already sealed is presumption of a very high order. But that goes right along with the attitude mentioned above.
Indeed, intellectual assent is far from sufficient because - going back to what started all this - forgiveness and the operation of the Spirit of God are not governed by mere intellectual assent. This is about what naturally flows out of a man. Forgiveness only flows out naturally from one who has been forgiven much (something only God could do properly ... to start with).
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You are always intent on showing off the little knowledge you possess rather than coming to the knowledge of the truth.
''Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth''.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Do not bear false witness against me, without specifically confronting me with my supposed errors. Such is not edifying, honest, or nice.
Cross Reference
New member
If you know that cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner, how can you then say you are in Christ even at the outset?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
"Cheap" grace is the belief that Justification is worked without resultant Sanctification, and such that believe that error are not in Christ.
Click.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I have no problem with that idea, but the way it works itself out in an individual's life is more at issue here, I think. That's why I went to forgiveness as evidence. The unbeliever cannot feign forgiveness without being obviously insincere. That's because he hasn't been properly forgiven. So someone who approaches God (I'm not dealing with drawing vs. coming of one's own free will here...just the end result) because of a great understanding of their sin will find the Grace of God truly amazing. And that can only happen by the work of the Holy Spirit. And when it does and that man is drawn to Christ, the salvation he receives becomes worth more than anything any man could ever hope to give. And forgiving others becomes almost routine - but no less sincere - because of the change wrought in him. Not merely because he understands how much he has been forgiven. That man will cringe at the thought that he should rest on the doctrine of eternal salvation rather than on the Savior Himself. Put another way, the Calvinist might realize that he may or may not be one of the elect, so he can't rest his salvation on believing he is. The Arminian may believe that if he doesn't keep up following God he will fall away and so he has to try and keep up all the good works etc... In both cases, the difference between success and failure is where the vision is. Is it on Christ HIMSELF or on the doctrine of what Christ has done? I submit that someone who is resting on the doctrine is at risk of trusting in himself to follow what is written rather than on Christ. So it isn't (in my mind) a matter of whether it is technically true, but rather what fruit comes of it? That is the test of truth - not simply logical analysis.
So when the rubber meets the road, who is more likely to run to Christ and ask forgiveness like a child who has displeased the parent he loves so much? I put it to you that it is the one who doesn't rest his forgiveness simply on the past but realizes it is practically a prayer away (hence, the need for the confidence engendered by the salvation of Christ covering all past, present and future sins). He is the one that is always (including "now") wanting to please the Master.
By way of comparison, the Calvinistic view of evangelism is that it is made easier because salvation isn't depended on man's actions. Why? Because the evangelist is freed from the burden of having to do what the Holy Spirit does and knows that the Lord will add to the church. All that is required of him (as a steward) is to be found faithful. So if we look at the idea of a man's sins being forgiven past, present and future in the same light, it should encourage us to approach the Savior for pardon and relief (for we all know what it is to be burdened under the effects of some sin for a time) in confidence. But if it rather causes him to say "I am already forgiven in Christ, I don't need to ask for this particular sin." Then his eye is more on the doctrine than on Christ. I put it to you that such a man is probably NOT forgiven.
But again, I temper that with the understanding that "asking for forgiveness" is as much an attitude as it is an action. I can conceive of someone bearing that attitude continually and so walking in forgiveness continually (so to speak).
This makes sense to me - absolutely. But do we do it because we read it in scripture or because we are compelled by the Holy Spirit's work in us?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Yes! The bottom line! We do it because we are motivated and led by the Holy Spirit to do it. I believe repentance, faith, grasping the Truth of Scripture, and all our prayers, petitions, and confessions are the fruit of His presence within our beings.
I have lost friends for standing for Monergistic Sanctification, but this is exactly what I believe your concluding paragraph describes.
Cross Reference
New member
Cross Reference
New member
And if we aren't motivated by the Holy Spirit, then what??