Can God lie?

[Idolater]

There are, of course, times when telling anything other than the entire truth is an immoral lie, such as when one is giving testimony in court but the overall biblical teaching is that whether a lie is immoral or not has to do with the motive of the lie. It is not wrong, for example, to deceive the enemy as I Kings 22:19-23 clearly demonstrates.

Additionally, I see no biblical reason why it would be necessary, for morality's sake, to be brutally honest in every situation. It is a kindness and simply polite, for example, to act as if you've enjoyed a meal prepared for you by your host, whether you actually enjoyed it or not. Nor is it wrong to act as if the work of art that your 5 year old child has created is very much better than it is in the strictest sense of artistic quality.

Some relevant discussion here:

'Telling the truth' doesn't always always mean don't lie

Telling the truth doesn’t necessarily always equal telling the accurate. When Samson rightly lied to Delilah he was telling the truth, but when he told Delilah the accurate, there he erred, and grievously. He should have continued to lie. But when you hear 'lie,' you hear, 'not telling the...

theologyonline.com

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I thought that's what you were already doing.

I understand you're saying lying isn't always evil, but I've tried to get you and @JudgeRightly to clarify when it isn't. I apologize if the questions went to one or the other of you instead of both, but I think you are both trying to read through the whole thread, which I appreciate.
It seems to boil down to "when there's a greater harm that needs to be prevented, lying is not a sin, but otherwise lying is a sin." Whether you like it or not, that means the liars in that case were righteously choosing the lesser of 2 evils. And I get your point that they are choosing to do righteously--the midwives to save the male babies rather than kill them, Rahab to promote the health and safety of the whole Israelite race, and with it the Messiah. And I could understand if you were saying they were under extreme pressure, in risk of their lives and the failure of their purpose to promote the righteous causes over the reigning authorities' evil causes. And under such extreme pressure, I would certainly understand that they felt the only option was to lie to the reigning authority rather than disobey God. I think I might do exactly the same thing.

But unless there's a case where lying is ok without that extra pressure to do something more evil, I can't see lying as a good thing--most especially because.
1. God doesn't do it (at least His word says He does, though you disagree)
2. Liars are excluded from God's kingdom (it doesn't say "evil liars", or "liars who don't just tell righteous lies", just liars)
3. Satan is the father of lies or lying (not "the father of all evil lies", but just lies or the act of lying)

John 8:44 KJV
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Let's look more closely at the midwives.
Exodus 1:15-21 KJV - And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one [was] Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see [them] upon the stools; if it [be] a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it [be] a daughter, then she shall live. But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women [are] not as the Egyptian women; for they [are] lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

The bold text above is the reason, and the underlined text is the reward. Neither bolded portion says specifically "because they lied" they were rewarded. The second bolded portion says "because the midwives feared God", and that phrase is a reprise of an earlier statement, where the text says, "But the midwives feared God and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive." This gives exactly what the did in their fear of God...they saved the babies alive. They hadn't lied yet, because they hadn't been called before Pharaoh yet.

So the text means "Because the midwives did not kill the men children," God rewarded them. God didn't condone lying in this case, but He did condone saving Hebrew lives.

What about Rahab? was she rewarded for lying? Not really. Here's the key verse:
Joshua 2:14 KJV - And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the LORD hath given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with thee.

Same formatting here: bold text gives the reason, underline text gives the reward. The reason is not "because you lied for us", but "if you utter not this our business." The lying had already occurred before the agreement was made. This is not to say they weren't grateful for saving them from the searchers, but you can't say she was rewarded specifically for lying, but for something she did AFTER the lying.

The midwives did not see the Hebrew women on the stools.
The babies had been delivered before they got there.
The midwives were in the clear, for they did not witness the birth.
While Pharoh would have been happy for them to kill the children anyway, which the midwives would have done if they respected Pharoh more than God, Pharoh had no legal leg to stand on for condemning them.
The midwives did not lie.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You'll need to keep walking through your assertion because the list in Rev 21:1 would include folks like Jacob, Abraham, David, etc.

Revelation 21​

(8) But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.​

Jacob lied.
Genesis 27
(24) He said, Are you really my son Esau? He answered, I am.

In who's eyes did Jacob lie?
Esau sold Jacob his birthright.
If you ask me, Jacob, for all intents and purposes, was at that time Isaac's first-born son Esau.

 

[Derf]

That's true. At least that's what it feels like.


Well, you've done more than that, you keep making arguments that only make sense if we're saying that lying isn't ever a sin, which you now have affirmatively acknowledged that you understand not to be the case. So, why do you keep making the arguments?

Because the qualifier is so subjective, perhaps.

I don't think I'd agree with that phrasing. I asked you before, if lying is only okay when its the lesser of two evils, then what was the other, supposedly greater evil, that God was avoiding by telling the spirit to go cause Ahab's prophets to lie to him? There were clearly other options God could have chosen as the lying was one of several suggestions offered in the heavenly conference that was going on so how can the lie have been a forced choice between two evils?

As stated before, if God sends a truthful and an untruthful statement and asks the receiver to choose the truthful statement, it's not the same as lying. Otherwise every teacher that made you take a true/false test would be a liar.

The simplest way I know of to state what the biblical materials supports is that it is not wrong to deceive an enemy when the fight is just.

This is a good distinction. But let me ask of it would be ok for an attorney representing a pro-life defendant to put forward statements he knows are false in order to win a pro-life court case?

It only means that if YOUR presuppositions are true, which they are not.

Well, you don't agree with them. Tgats not the same as them being untrue, unless you like question-begging.

To do otherwise, would be sin.


Yes, actually, He does! Remember the "Go and do it." in I Kings?


It is not relevant whether the qualifiars are in place. People are not excluded from God's kingdom for any reason other than having done evil. In other words, the context makes the qualifiers redundant.

Lying would need that qualifier, just like killing does. That's why "murderers" make the list--it qualifies killers.

Again, just as above, the qualifier would be redundant. Satan is the father of evil and of nothing else. The lies simply being a specific sort of evil.

I agree. You would normally not need a qualifier for lying...it would be redundant, since lying is generally thought of as evil.

Dance all you want, Derf. The action they took was to tell a lie which directly resulted in God rewarding them.

No, not "directly", as I already "danced" out for you.

All you've done here is talk about the motive behind the lie, which effectively concedes our side of the debate because it is precisely the motive that determines whether a lie is good or evil, as is the case with virtually every sinful act. It is, for example, the motive that turns killing someone into either an accident (amoral), self-defense (righteous) , an execution (righteousness if just) or a murder (evil). Likewise, just as killing a person is not always evil, so lying to someone is not always evil.

Speaking would be of the same category. Lying is speaking in an evil way, like murder is killing in an evil way. One could speak in other evil ways, including slander, reviling, etc. And one can speak in good ways, like encouraging, exhorting, etc. James explains this here:
James 3:8-11 KJV — But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Well, Derf, as I've said repeatedly now, there is your doctrinal interpretation and then there's the plain reading of the text.

That's called begging the question, and you know it.

The text doesn't require any interpretation.

Then why do you interpret it differently than the text plainly says? (two can play that game)

It's perfectly obvious what happened, why it was done and what the result was. In a nut shell, the midwives lied and God said "Well done! As reward, I'm going to figure it out so that the Messiah will come from your line. Keep up the good work!"

Right! "Keep lying and your blessings will abound." No, the text explicitly says exactly what they were being rewarded for: fearing God by disobeying the command to slaughter the Hebrew boys.

Same response here at above. All you're doing here is pointing out the motive but it doesn't change the fact that the action that was rewarded was the telling of a lie. Rahab lied and in doing so, she did a good thing and was rewarded for it.

Rehab saved the spies lives, and in that she did a good thing. But the reward was for not jeopardizing the spies and their mission, just as the text plainly says. (see how easy it is?)

The fact that the motive is what turned the lie into a good thing doesn't change the fact that it was a lie. All it changes is that it was a good lie instead of an evil one. Therefore, lying is not always evil. Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Clete

Good, because of the greater evil alternative. I'm still waiting for a case where you lie without a greater evil alternative and it is a good lie. Hypothetical will be fine.

 

[Derf]

The midwives did not see the Hebrew women on the stools.
The babies had been delivered before they got there.
The midwives were in the clear, for they did not witness the birth.
While Pharoh would have been happy for them to kill the children anyway, which the midwives would have done if they respected Pharoh more than God, Pharoh had no legal leg to stand on for condemning them.
The midwives did not lie.

I suppose that's possible, but with hundreds of thousands of women giving birth over months and maybe years, it's very unlikely they were ALWAYS late to the births. Who would continue to call the midwives at all to come help with the births?

 

[Hoping]

Why did God remove the death penalty for Cain, and not require it for anyone prior to Noah, especially if there was no law?

What death penalty?

Thank you for catching up to the rest of us.

You're welcome.

Hmm, I wonder how this applies to Christians, as they are no longer under the law, who sin........ Topic for a different thread, though.

If one sins they ARE under the Law, as it was made FOR sinners.
"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)

Do not do evil that good may come of it.

Correct.

So Rahab and the Hebrew midwives were sinning?

Unimputed sin.

Begging the question.
That's what we're discussing.
You cannot assume that which we are trying to determine.

Lying is a sin, but not imputed where there is no Law against it.

There was a law prior to Moses.

Got a copy of that?
Was that law from God ?

So you would have, had you been in Nazi Germany, told the Nazi officer who came to your home that there were Jews hiding in your house in order to avoid being killed by the Nazis.

Nope, because I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ that nothing of the sort occurs.

You would have, had you lived during America's slave trade era, told the slaver who came to your house looking for his slaves that you were hiding them in a hidden compartment, because your home was part of the Underground Railroad.

Nope, because I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ that nothing of the sort occurs.

Am I wrong?

Yes, as you forgot to include prayer in your scenario.

More question begging.
We are discussing whether it IS a sin. Assuming it is a sin won't work here.

Is there any doubt that lying is a sin?
God said not to, so disobeying Him is a sin.

You actually think that protecting the innocent is a sin!?!?

Nope, but lying is a sin.

What should the Hebrew midwives have done when Pharaoh told them to kill the innocent children they were going to deliver, instead of lying to him and protecting them?

Had they known that telling lies was a sin in the eyes of God, they would have had to choose either to obey God or save the babies.

If you had been one of them, what would you have done, tell Pharaoh the truth?

If I had been "one of them" I pray I would have acted as they did in your hypothetical scenario.

Because God isn't in the business of protecting people from the sins of others.

I have the faith that He will !

Not always.

But some times.
Pray for the "sometimes".

 

[Hoping]

Hoping, and @Derf for that matter, what does the law say?

Does it say:
A) "You shall not lie"
B) "You shall not bear false witness"

Is lying to save the innocent "bearing false witness"?

No?

Then @Hoping, your point about it being a moot point because Rahab and the Hebrew midwives were not under the law is itself a moot point, because the law doesn't say anything about lying to begin with, only bearing false witness.

There was no knowledge of the Law during the two occasions in question. (Rahab and midwives)

 

[Hoping]

Conscience is likely the right answer, but Lamech knew it was forbidden because of the penalty levied on Cain.
Genesis 4:23-24 KJV - And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.


Yes, I thinks that's correct, although all will also be judged by other things, since sometimes men's consciences are seared, and sometimes men are hypocritical:
1 Timothy 4:2 KJV - Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Interesting that 1 Tim 4:2 is also a verse about lying.

The conscience is seared by sin.

 

[Hoping]

Did Rahab bear false witness? Did the midwives? I think they did. You might have a point if you finish the law statement: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." That presumes that "bearing false witness" is not equal to "lying".
Exodus 20:16 KJV - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Does this give us an out for other types of lies? I don't see that in the Revelation passage. Nor in these:
Proverbs 14:5 KJV - A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Proverbs 19:5 KJV - A false witness shall not be unpunished, and [he that] speaketh lies shall not escape.
Proverbs 19:9 KJV - A false witness shall not be unpunished, and [he that] speaketh lies shall perish.

And this one lists both in the list of seven abominations:
Proverbs 6:16-19 KJV - These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

It seems like the false witness speaking lies is NOT the same abomination as the lying tongue. And remember that it doesn't distinguish between a good lying tongue and an evil lying tongue.

NOT the same?
I disagree.

 

[Derf]

In who's eyes did Jacob lie?
Esau sold Jacob his birthright.
If you ask me, Jacob, for all intents and purposes, was at that time Isaac's first-born son Esau.

In Jacob's eyes:
Genesis 27:19 KJV — And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.

It wasn't Esau.
He hadn't gone out for venison, as Isaac asked.
It was goat meat.
3 lies. But it was all ok, right @Clete and @JudgeRightly? Since it was for a righteous cause, to help prophecy come to pass? Therefore no need for Jacob to fear his father's curse, nor for his mother to offer to bear the curse for his lying.
Genesis 27:12-13 KJV — My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing. And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.

But his mother definitely didn't say, "Don't worry Jacob, this is a good lie, so you'll be ok."

 

[Derf]

NOT the same?
I disagree.

Then somebody counted wrong, as there are supposed to be 7 abominations.

 

[Hoping]

Good lies in the Bible, some of which God blessed abundantly: - The Hebrew midwives lied to save innocent children - Rahab lied to save the God-fearing spies - Milcah lied to save her husband David - A Bahurim woman lied to save Jonathan and Ahimaaz - God sent a lying spirit to deceive a wicked king - God planned the ambush that deceived the men of Ai - Elisha lied to the blinded Syrian army, "Follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom you seek." But by God's power he led them to Samaria. - Moses lied to Pharaoh saying, "We will go three days’ journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to the Lord our God", knowing full well that the plan was for the Hebrews to leave Egypt for good and head to the Promised Land. Good lies in more recent history: - Corrie ten Boom lied to Germans who would kill the Jews - Harriet Tubman lied to Americans who would rob blacks of their freedom - The Allies deceived the Germans with fake field armies to aid the Normandy invasion - Etc. Most of the church explains why lying is wrong, but whether they realize it or not, their teaching applies generally, but not always. There are a minority of teachers, including at Denver Bible Church and here at BEL, who provide equal time, so to speak, by explaining when lying is good. Sinful lying, of course, should never be defended. The Bible accurately reports sinful untruths, such as when Aaron lied about the origin of the golden calf (Ex. 32:3-4, 22-24), when the Amalakite lied about killing Saul (2 Sam. 1:6-10), and when the false witnesses lied about Jesus (Mark 14:55-59).

Lying for God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

Was it a good thing for the people in the above list to do to lie when they did for the reasons they did?

If so, then their lies were not sinful. (Evil is not good and good is not evil.)

And it also disproves the idea that ALL lies are sinful.

The devil is the father of lies and of those who use them. (John 8:44)
You can't be reborn of God if your father is the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Hoping]

Then somebody counted wrong, as there are supposed to be 7 abominations.

Aren't they both listed in the same paragraph?

Then somebody counted wrong, as there are supposed to be 7 abominations.

Doesn't the false witness have a lying tongue?
Perhaps the lying tongue isn't always bearing false witness but lying about something other than a witness of others?
I can't even think of an example...

 

[JudgeRightly]

The midwives did not see the Hebrew women on the stools.
The babies had been delivered before they got there.
The midwives were in the clear, for they did not witness the birth.

This is all completely false.

Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah;and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.”But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty.And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive.” - Exodus 1:15-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus1:15-22&version=NKJV

The plain reading of the text shows us that the midwives delivered the children, and did not kill the boys, as they were commanded by Pharaoh, and then lied to him when asked why they did not do as they were commanded.

While Pharaoh would have been happy for them to kill the children anyway, which the midwives would have done if they respected Pharoh more than God, Pharoh had no legal leg to stand on for condemning them.

Obviously.

The midwives did not lie.

Yes, they did.

But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.” - Exodus 1:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus1:17-19&version=NKJV

They lied to Pharaoh, and God rewarded them for it.

In who's eyes did Jacob lie?

God's.

Esau sold Jacob his birthright.

So?

If you ask me, Jacob, for all intents and purposes, was at that time Isaac's first-born son Esau.

Except he wasn't. He stole it from Esau.

I suppose that's possible, but with hundreds of thousands of women giving birth over months and maybe years, it's very unlikely they were ALWAYS late to the births. Who would continue to call the midwives at all to come help with the births?

It's objectively false, as explained above.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What death penalty?

Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear!Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”And the Lord said to him, “Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. - Genesis 4:8-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis4:8-15&version=NKJV

If one sins they ARE under the Law, as it was made FOR sinners.
"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)

What part of "for another thread" do you not understand?

Unimputed sin.

They were under the law of their conscience.

Lying is a sin, but not imputed where there is no Law against it.

It's astounding that you don't even realize that you're contradicting yourself within a few sentences.

"If one sins they ARE under the Law, as it was made FOR sinners."

Those are your words.

Got a copy of that?
Was that law from God?

I'll let you read and find out for yourself.

So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand.Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.And as for you, be fruitful and multiply; Bring forth abundantly in the earth And multiply in it.” - Genesis 9:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis9:1-7&version=NKJV

Nope, because I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ that nothing of the sort occurs.

Nope, because I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ that nothing of the sort occurs.

The hypothetical has you IN such a situation. You can't just say "it wouldn't happen."

I mean, you could, but that's just being intellectually dishonest.

Yes, as you forgot to include prayer in your scenario.

Prayer won't stop the murderer from killing the person in front of you.

Is there any doubt that lying is a sin?

YES. That's what this entire discussion is about, Hoping!

God said not to,

Where?

so disobeying Him is a sin.

Yes it is. Why do you disobey Him?

Nope, but lying is a sin.

Begging the question.

Had they known that telling lies was a sin in the eyes of God,

Begging the question.

they would have had to choose either to obey God or save the babies.

They did BOTH, and God rewarded them for it.

But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.” - Exodus 1:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus1:17-19&version=NKJV

If I had been "one of them" I pray I would have acted as they did in your hypothetical scenario.

In other words, you would, at least according to your own position, sin.

Shame on you!

I have the faith that He will!

The fact is that He doesn't.

But some times.
Pray for the "sometimes".

That only works for His followers. You are not one of them.

There was no knowledge of the Law during the two occasions in question. (Rahab and midwives)

Yes, there was.

The devil is the father of lies and of those who use them. (John 8:44)
You can't be reborn of God if your father is the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

See post #80.

 

[Derf]

It's objectively false, as explained above.

You must mean "objectionably false", since I explained how it could be true, even if my scenario is very unlikely. The text doesn't actually say they lied.

 

[glorydaz]

Not to mention Jesus in Revelation 21:8 — But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The question, then, is whether the Hebrew midwives and Rahab were rewarded for lying or something else. Because if they were rewarded for lying, but all liars are thrown in the lake of fire, God appears to be duplicitous, at the very least.

The letter of the law can never trump the spirit of the law. Clearly, God was speaking to Rehab.

Joshua 2:9-11
9 And she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10 For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. 11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

 

[JudgeRightly]

spirit of the law.

No such thing, because it's a contradiction.

The letter (aka the law) kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You must mean "objectionably false",

No, I meant objectively false, as I said.

since I explained how it could be true,

And here is why it's not possible for your explanation to be true:

even if my scenario is very unlikely. The text doesn't actually say they lied

Yes, it does. It doesn't say "and they lied to Pharaoh and said", no, but here's what it does say:

Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah;and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.”But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty.And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive.” - Exodus 1:15-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus1:15-22&version=NKJV

Verse 15, Pharaoh speaks to Shiphrah and Puah (two Hebrew midwives)
Verse 16, he commands them to kill the male children, but let the female children live, as they do their duties as midwives
Verse 17, the midwives did not do what Pharaoh told them to do, and did not kill the male children, as they did their duties as midwives
Verse 18, Pharaoh asks them why they didn't do what he said
Verse 19, the midwives answer Pharaoh, telling him a lie, that the Hebrew women give birth faster than the egyptian women.
Verse 20, God rewards the midwives for their defense of the innocent, and the number of Israelites grows
Verse 21, a more explicit statement of God rewarding the midwives for their actions, giving them families of their own.

Derf, have you ever been present for the birth of a human being? I have. It took several hours, and the mother was in the hospital room overnight the night before giving birth. There were plenty of signs that she was getting ready to give birth, even hours before it happened.

Hebrew women. Egyptian women. All of them are human beings. They aren't going to vary that much when it comes to bodily processes.

On top of that, and arguably more importantly, the Bible explicitly states that the midwives delivered the male children alive. Meaning they were ipso facto delivering the children, and not "arriving late to the delivery," as what they said, that the babies pop out of their mothers' wombs "before the midwives come to them," would necessarily imply!

The passage literally does not leave any room for any other interpretation besides that they lied to Pharaoh!

 

[JudgeRightly]

@Derf, and @Hoping if he is willing to humble himself, I think you need to listen to the show at https://kgov.com/lying, even if you just start at 33:03 and listen from there to at least 39:52.