If you see nothing wrong with God predestinating people to hell before they are born tells me that you are unjust also. To think that the God that so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world and then predestinates people to hell before they are born is unthinkable and unbelievable.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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If you see nothing wrong with God predestinating people to hell before they are born tells me that you are unjust also. To think that the God that so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world and then predestinates people to hell before they are born is unthinkable and unbelievable.
All you do is regurgitate the word unjust, when you have been provided numerous verses from His word that say exactly what you claim is unjust and refuse to answer WHY and HOW its unjust for God to know all things beforehand like HIS word says.
You clearly are NOT interested in intelligent conversation, but merely want to preach.
You have the mind of a Calvinist, that is twisted and perverted.
There is no way that the God of the Bible predestinates people to hell before they are born.
It is not humanly possible for you to love and have faith in a God that would do such a horrible thing such as that.
Your thinking is not Christian.
I'm not a Calvinist, and scripture says what you dont like plainly and youve yet (and i suspect never will since you cannot) break these verses down and tell us how they do not mean what they say. Unlike you, even though I am not calvinist, i will not gloss and skip verses because they challenge what i believe.
Read it till you get it: Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,…
The bible is abundantly clear as ive shown that God knows what we will choose, long before we do, when we are born, when we die, and all is laid bare before Him, He is all knowing, all seeing and all powerful, sovereign over all.
You have a huge problem with your logic, if He doesn't know who will end up in hell, it would not be possible for Him to know who will be holy and blameless like this clearly says, unless you believe all of mankind is saved.
Unlike calvinists, i believe that God offers salvation to ALL - only all will not receive it, but we have a choice. I also agree with them that the choice is not possible untill Gods spirit draws us. (John 12:32) I believe all the scriptures, you only believe what you like.
God having known before i was born that i would choose life (Psalm 139:16) has no bearing on my choice, I still chose it, i believe in free will.
You deny Gods power, i dont. I know a small child will choose a cookie over an artichoke heart. Do i choose for them?
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Salvation is a Promise, Not A Conditional
Salvation is a Promise, Not A Conditional
Faith is only required as a condition to interest the sinner in the Savior, and God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save. Salvation is not a precept that is left unfulfilled. It is a promise which is truthfully fulfilled in the salvation of those who believe. To deny this is to deny the doctrines of grace.
God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. Those who say that there is a desire to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.
With regard to individual election and reprobation the purpose of God remains a secret at the point the gospel is offered. But the purpose of God for the salvation of sinners indefinitely is revealed in the gospel. Likewise the purpose of God to save those who believe in Christ is also revealed in the gospel. Likewise the purpose of God to leave unbelievers in Adam in a state of condemnation is also revealed in the gospel. Furthermore, those who believe to the saving of their souls demonstrate they are elect. Otherwise the apostles could not have addressed anyone as "elect," not even in the judgment of charity per the ninth commmandment. Saving faith reveals the purpose of God to save individuals, and that faith is a witness of God in their souls concerning God's purpose. Likewise, those who remain unbelievers and never exercise faith demonstrate the purpose of God to leave them in their sins in Adam and to suffer the punishment of them. Their actions also reveal the secret purpose of God.
God does not change, yet He says He repents. God is all powerful, but at times He presents Himself as being limited in what He can do. God is everywhere, though He speaks of moving from place to place. God knows all things, but then He is shown as One who inquires into facts. These anthropopathisms are for the purpose of expressing His moral government towards His creatures, who relate to these kinds of affections and limitations; they were not intended to bring us to believe that these affections and limitations are in God Himself.
Let me put this in the plainest possible terms. Advocates of the so-called well-meant offer preach that God desires to save those who will not believe; and they claim that this is God's revealed will. This is not the Biblical offer of the gospel. The Biblical offer of the gospel is, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. The true gospel reveals that God desires the salvation of those who believe. There is no desire for the salvation of men irrespective of faith.
AMR
Salvation is a Promise, Not A Conditional
The notion of a certain divine foreknowledge of future conditionals ("IF") is a rather unstable concept: in order for God to know the conditional conditionally, God would have to be ignorant of its resolution in actuality. In other words, the “if” of the conditional would have to represent an indeterminacy and uncertainty in God himself.
Faith is only required as a condition to interest the sinner in the Savior, and God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save. Salvation is not a precept that is left unfulfilled. It is a promise which is truthfully fulfilled in the salvation of those who believe. To deny this is to deny the doctrines of grace.
God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. Those who say that there is a desire to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.
With regard to individual election and reprobation the purpose of God remains a secret at the point the gospel is offered. But the purpose of God for the salvation of sinners indefinitely is revealed in the gospel. Likewise the purpose of God to save those who believe in Christ is also revealed in the gospel. Likewise the purpose of God to leave unbelievers in Adam in a state of condemnation is also revealed in the gospel. Furthermore, those who believe to the saving of their souls demonstrate they are elect. Otherwise the apostles could not have addressed anyone as "elect," not even in the judgment of charity per the ninth commmandment. Saving faith reveals the purpose of God to save individuals, and that faith is a witness of God in their souls concerning God's purpose. Likewise, those who remain unbelievers and never exercise faith demonstrate the purpose of God to leave them in their sins in Adam and to suffer the punishment of them. Their actions also reveal the secret purpose of God.
God does not change, yet He says He repents. God is all powerful, but at times He presents Himself as being limited in what He can do. God is everywhere, though He speaks of moving from place to place. God knows all things, but then He is shown as One who inquires into facts. These anthropopathisms are for the purpose of expressing His moral government towards His creatures, who relate to these kinds of affections and limitations; they were not intended to bring us to believe that these affections and limitations are in God Himself.
Let me put this in the plainest possible terms. Advocates of the so-called well-meant offer preach that God desires to save those who will not believe; and they claim that this is God's revealed will. This is not the Biblical offer of the gospel. The Biblical offer of the gospel is, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. The true gospel reveals that God desires the salvation of those who believe. There is no desire for the salvation of men irrespective of faith.
AMR
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Well said, Nang.
Lets reverse this constant disparaging of Calvinism and talk about these
Anti-Calvinists of TOL:
The belief that you are born to damnation unless you repent for being born evil. God doesn't make the first move, because your free will takes precedence over anything of God.
Your children- treat them like little pagans to be evangelized and refuse their membership into the familial body of Christ
Water baptism?
That's for the Jews, because it makes perfect sense that God would command the Jews to be dunked in water and for Gentiles to 'just believe'. Because that's just God's will, who commands nothing in vain.
Faith or Works?
How about Grace- let's create a false dichotomy and separate grace from faith and works, so that I can point at anyone better than me and call them evil for doing a 'work'.
Because faith is all about being a functioning atheist.
All the books not of Paul?
They're inconvenient, so we just forget they exist. We don't follow half of Paul either, so no prejudice.
:chuckle:
Anti-Calvinists of TOL:
The belief that you are born to damnation unless you repent for being born evil. God doesn't make the first move, because your free will takes precedence over anything of God.
Your children- treat them like little pagans to be evangelized and refuse their membership into the familial body of Christ
Water baptism?
That's for the Jews, because it makes perfect sense that God would command the Jews to be dunked in water and for Gentiles to 'just believe'. Because that's just God's will, who commands nothing in vain.
Faith or Works?
How about Grace- let's create a false dichotomy and separate grace from faith and works, so that I can point at anyone better than me and call them evil for doing a 'work'.
Because faith is all about being a functioning atheist.
All the books not of Paul?
They're inconvenient, so we just forget they exist. We don't follow half of Paul either, so no prejudice.
:chuckle:
flintstoned
New member
If the God you believe in creates people, knowing beforehand that they will go to hell, how is it any different from what Calvinists believe? He is consigning people to a life that will result in everlasting hell. Why does he create them when the end result is hell?
fishrovmen
Active member
Robert Pate,
I asked in post #951 what the "atonement" actually accomplished for the unbeliever, since you believe that their "sins" will be imputed back to their account?
In fact, it seems to be the same for the believer also, just a stay of execution until their faith makes it so much more?
Can you elaborate on your atonement theory?
I asked in post #951 what the "atonement" actually accomplished for the unbeliever, since you believe that their "sins" will be imputed back to their account?
In fact, it seems to be the same for the believer also, just a stay of execution until their faith makes it so much more?
Can you elaborate on your atonement theory?
There is no scripture that says God prdestinates people to heaven or to hell. You have misinterpreted the scriptures.
If God predestinated people to hell before they are born he would be unjust.
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling ALL to come to Christ. Some come, Some don't. God has nothing to do with who comes and who doesn't.
"This day I have set before you life and death, choose life" Deuteronomy 30:19.
fishrovmen
Active member
How is this "call" sent forth? (by what means), and how is it answered?
Shasta
Well-known member
This is not Biblical. God's omniscience includes knowledge of conditionals and even counterfactual propositions. Here is an example.
23...will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will descend to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” (Matthew 11:23)
God not only knew that Sodom was going to be destroyed He knew how they would have responded had the situation been different. God knows not only everything about the actual world He knows the configuration of all possible worlds. If God's knowledge were based solely on His control then all His conditional offers would be dishonest. They would only appear to be real possibilities. When God spoke He usually was addressing ordinary people who took His offers as they were presented.
I, for one, have never suggested that God wills save people who have chosen not to believe. As far as I know the subject of Universalism has not been brought up for discussion. However, I believe the scriptures affirm that God out of His good will and kindness desires to save all men IF they would but repent and believe (1 Timothy 2:4)
For the first three hundred years of Church history the orthodox leaders, theologians and apologists all taught that man has a real choice, a doctrine you would apparently characterize as "devised" If anything is devised it is the philosophy of theistic determinism that Augustine smuggled into the mainstream of Christian thinking in the fifth century. Fallen men need to be convicted by the Holy Spirit before they will be WILLING to be saved but this influence is not irresistible. The scripture testifies that men can resist, grieve and quench the influence of the Spirit.
In your system those who remain in unbelief do so because God has not granted them faith and then they are punished for it. You can call God's purpose in gratuitously selecting certain people for damnation a "mystery" but I think the reason it is opaque to reason is because it is inherently unreasonable. It is a "secret" only because it has been secreted in a place where it will not have to be considered under the light of day.
Yes we necessarily speak in anthropomorphisms. However, since God is the source of moral consciousness and rationality (damaged though it is) we should be able to use those faculties to distinguish the rational from the irrational and the moral from the immoral. When Calvin's System is analyzed this way it is evident that "God’s moral government" as he conceived it lacks morality.
Also, Rationally speaking, something can only be a moral issue if the agent (a) knows right from wrong and (b) is capable of making a choice about it. When a child ignorantly pulls the trigger of a gun and kills someone it is not murder. Likewise, if an individual holding a gun has a seizure and pulls the trigger involuntarily and kills someone he is also not culpable. By making man helpless you do not elevate moral government you downgrade it.
I do not know which particular group you are referring to who believe it is God’s desire to “save people who will not believe.” Mainstream evangelicals (including non-Calvinists) would all say that people are saved on the condition of faith. Since neither you nor I are universalists I suspect this is just a red herring either thator attempt to fashion a straw man to represent my position. Whatever the case, just because it is God’s desire to save everyone does not mean it is possible without the atonement and without faith. The difference between us is that you believe God's policy is to control the minds and wills of men while I do not. As to what God desires for all people I will let Him speak for Himself.
11"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
Now if Esau truly represents unregenerate men then it follows first that God hates them. In fact, according to Calvinism, the Heavenly Potter Himself, assists in the process of shaping them into vessels fitted to receive divine wrath. When these “vessels of wrath” are completed and die and the pre-planned wrath finally comes about are these people not fulfilling the very purpose that God made them for? The result SHOULD be divine satisfaction but, strangely, it is not. In the passage it is clear that what would have given God pleasure, is if they had repented. Well, if that is so, and God has a policy of being all-controlling (i.e., sovereign) then nothing prevented Him from causing them to repent...unless God delights in grieving Himself. On the other hand, if people truly have a choice and then refused to repent then their punishment and scriptures like these are moral as well as rational
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
I really appreciate you posting what is bolded above!
But I need to ask how you interpret Ephesians 1:4 as explaining "God chose us" according to His foreknowledge of "what we will choose."
This verse says nothing about God seeing into the future and choosing souls in Christ, according to what they would DO in their lifetimes.
Rather the verse clearly teaches three things:
1. God chose some to be "holy and blameless."
2. So that they would be fit for "adoption as His sons."
3. According to "the good pleasure of HIS WILL."
God Himself alone can change our hearts to be holy and blameless for only God can enable sinners to repent and serve righteousness rather than sin.
I believe Ephesians 1:4 is the Gospel message of unconditional Election, and unconditional salvation, that alone brings all glory to the name of Jesus Christ.
I believe Ephesians 1:4 reveals the purpose, accomplishment, and sovereign will of God only.
No mention from God of any human conditions or necessity of the exercise of the free will of men, in order to accomplish His purposes and good will. None.
BTW, your sig is powerful! :up:
God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
God does not choose individuals to salvation simply because God is no respecter of persons. All that God does he does corporately, this is why Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. But not everyone wants it.
All that were saved in the New Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2. Calvinism makes God unjust. If you believe that God is unjust you will never see heaven.
Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
God does not choose individuals to salvation simply because God is no respecter of persons. All that God does he does corporately, this is why Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. But not everyone wants it.
All that were saved in the New Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2. Calvinism makes God unjust. If you believe that God is unjust you will never see heaven.
Now lets follow this all the way out....i have set before you life and death, choose life, so what happens to the one who will not choose life?
Do they end up in hell? See the verse you quote answers you already.
To the bolded verse that God doesn't know who comes or not - the verse i keep asking you to break down already says it. Those who will come to life, were already known before the foundation of the world just like it says.
You wont break down that verse because you know it says exactly that, and you know good and well if He knows who will be saved, He already knows who will be in hell.
God uses all to His glory. Its not unjust because they could have chosen life. He calls all. To why were they created then?
They still have a purpose - and are used to His purpose. Just because you dont know His purpose, doesnt make it unvalid or unjust.
Romans 9:21-23
False. You keep saying that, then say not all are saved, which is it. If all are chosen, all are saved and this is a lie:
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Ill believe Him, because:
Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
all are not saved.
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No Unfulfilled Desires in God
No Unfulfilled Desires in God
The fundamental elements of middle knowledge is the concept of non-volitional dispositions in God or the desire in God for things to happen which He knows will not come to pass. Error. There are no true counterfactuals of human freedom. Counterfactual desires in God are but an Arminian error. Any expression of counterfactual desires in God is but an example of anthropopathism. For example, despite anti-Calvinist claims, 2 Peter 3:9 in no way suggests some counterfactual desire in God, since Peter's readership are being treated with the judgment of charity as the elect, and it is this readership who are assured concerning God's unwillingness that they perish.
No classical theist—Molinist or Thomist, Arminian or Calvinist—has ever said that God does not know genuine possibilities. For on all of these models of God, the divine cognition embraces all possibles via God's natural knowledge. God's foreknowledge is grounded in something that actually happens, and it is the occurrence of that future event that sanctions the foreknowledge of it. If there are true counterfactuals of freedom what exactly is the ground of God's knowledge of them?
"If AMR does this, I, God, will do that" is not something in God's mind. Rather it must be, "When AMR does this, I, God, will do that." God does not have conditional decrees, but He decrees conditions.
The remainder of your response is yet another attempt to argue libertarian free will of the non-believer, despite Scripture's teachings to the contrary, e.g., Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14, or an argument that oddly presumes that God actually possesses unfulfilled desires. No on both accounts.
AMR
No Unfulfilled Desires in God
Are you advocating middle knowledge of God as in Molinism? Or perhaps Boyd's Neo-Molinism attempts to suport open theism?
The fundamental elements of middle knowledge is the concept of non-volitional dispositions in God or the desire in God for things to happen which He knows will not come to pass. Error. There are no true counterfactuals of human freedom. Counterfactual desires in God are but an Arminian error. Any expression of counterfactual desires in God is but an example of anthropopathism. For example, despite anti-Calvinist claims, 2 Peter 3:9 in no way suggests some counterfactual desire in God, since Peter's readership are being treated with the judgment of charity as the elect, and it is this readership who are assured concerning God's unwillingness that they perish.
No classical theist—Molinist or Thomist, Arminian or Calvinist—has ever said that God does not know genuine possibilities. For on all of these models of God, the divine cognition embraces all possibles via God's natural knowledge. God's foreknowledge is grounded in something that actually happens, and it is the occurrence of that future event that sanctions the foreknowledge of it. If there are true counterfactuals of freedom what exactly is the ground of God's knowledge of them?
"If AMR does this, I, God, will do that" is not something in God's mind. Rather it must be, "When AMR does this, I, God, will do that." God does not have conditional decrees, but He decrees conditions.
The remainder of your response is yet another attempt to argue libertarian free will of the non-believer, despite Scripture's teachings to the contrary, e.g., Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14, or an argument that oddly presumes that God actually possesses unfulfilled desires. No on both accounts.
AMR
You believe that scripture contradicts scripture. All of the scriptures that you listed also apply to me who is not a Calvinist.
"For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy on ALL" Romans 11:32.
The Gospel is not for "Some certain persons" the Gospel is for everyone that believes.
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Those Who Will Believe
Yes, the Gospel is for the believing ones and only the believing ones, whether they be Calvinists or not. :AMR:
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