BRXII Battle talk
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Aimiel
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He is The One Who said that, I simply believe it. He said that He will judge sin. He said that He will cast into The Lake of Fire those who aren't written in His Book of Life to suffer eternal torment. Universalists are the ones who say that He is a liar. They believe that the second death doesn't exist. That is heresy: making The Kingdom of God of none effect.red77 said:
Aimiel said:
Is there anything in the Bible that you read symbolically? :think: Now if God works out everything to the purpose of his will, then is it possible for him to restore his entire world within the fullness of time? Now - if you say no - then you limit God by your interpreation of these passages, God says he wills all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that he came to save the world, if God has a plan that will come to fruition then any doctrine that says otherwise or limits his power or love is at the very least questionable, you tell us that God wont be able to save his own world, that his love is limited by his wrath, that all things in fact are NOT possible for God, I'm not gonna do that.......
Aimiel
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It isn't limiting God to believe what He says Himself. It is limiting Him to put your own 'spin' on His Word by taking what men say about Him out-of-context and putting their words before His. This is what happens when you seek knowledge above Him. You make the god of your imagination and then you bow down to it.
logos_x
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Aimiel said:
I'm sure the Pharisees felt the same way.
That is why we are having this debate. We have been looking at what God actually said compared to what people believe.
Did God really talk about literal flames? In the case of what the rich man was in, was this an eternal condition with no hope whatsoever? The rich man was really the High Priest of Israel when Jesus said this parable...Lazarus was a leper in the parable...full of sores and dogs licking his wounds, but in Hades and the Bosom of Abraham...apparently there was escape through resurrection from death. That is a very promenent theme in this parable. Hades is the Greek equivilent of the Hebrew Sheol in the Old Testament...which is the grave or state of death. This was a classic reversal of fortunes parable....and nothing is even said about "eternity" in the narrative.
People who think eternal torment is God's intention jump to conclusions based on their belief that this parable is discribing what they believe to be true. On top of that, they make it ananthema to think that eternal torment might not be true, and launch into how wrong people who question it are. There is an emotional attachment to eternal torment as well, for some strange reason. It has people that believe in eternal torment acting as though they are in a cult where it's not allowed to think in the ways a Christian universalist does.
So...what we have is two belief systems using the same Word of God and drawing very different conclusions about what it says. And I think what it says is very different than what the believers in eternal torment think it says. The believers in eternal torment think that Hell not being eternal is bad news. I don't. People that belive in eternal torment think Jesus being the savior of all men is bad news. I don't. People that believe in eternal torment want to refute everything a Christian universalist has to say. I don't.
there is no mention in the Hebrew or the Greek of the Bible of eternal torment. There is aionion chastisement. And there is the lake of fire which is defined as the "second death" for the ages of the ages....and that some will be touchstoned in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb until the age of the ages.(Rev 14:10; 20:10) The lake is comprised of fire which refines for purity and destroys impurities...AND brimstone which cleanses and has healing properties and wards off disease.
The only way to get eternal torment in there is to change the meaning of the Greek words the Holy Spirit used and what the Biblical symbolism employed meant at the time it was written. And it does this in a way that limits God in His ability to save mankind.
I'm not comfortable doing that any more.
If there is not an unending punishment, from what did Jesus need to redeem us?
Aimiel said:
well God says he's worked all things out within the counsel of his own will - right? He wills all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, he wills that none should perish, he will put all things in the universe in subjection to him, the problem you seem to have is an inability to recognise symbolical language, I asume you believe the LOF to be a literal fire - as you obviously seem to think hell is because of how you see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus - and you use your own supposition to explain how a man on fire can speak despite there being no words that say God gave 'temporary respite' from the fire....
Do you read all of Revelation literally? If not why not? Whats literal and whats symbolic? How come Knight and pastor Kevin interpret the LOF differently? Why is there any differing attitudes and interpretations on this at all - if its supposedly so clear to those who believe in ET?
You limit the power and the will of God to say he cannot restore his OWN creation, you cannot get away from that simple fact, your doctrine simply prevents you from allowing God to be bigger than it.....
This will be the third time you have told us "it wont happen again" so please I am begging you to keep your word this time.logos_x said:
It is a ban-able offense and I don't want it to come to that because I really like you and I value your participation on TOL a great deal.
Aimiel
Well-known member
No, we're looking at what God plainly said and what universalists try to twist it to mean. If you were to look at what God actually said, you'd realize that, but you can't, because you're steeped in deception. You've fallen for the first lie, "You shall not surely die." Those who believe as you do will be surprised to find themselves in hell, just like Jihadists who commit homicide / suicide with bombs strapped to themselves; though they're not nearly as dangerous. They kill people and that's all they can do. You lead people astray from The Word of God into hell along with yourself.logos_x said:
logos_x
New member
Aimiel said:
Aimiel...get over it.
Plainly, the degree of "twisting" one does goes with what one believes God will do. If you believe in eternal torment then that is the way you will spin scripture to support your view. If you believe in God all in all in the end then that is what you will see in scripture.
God did not "plainly say" eternal torment by NOT using words that say eternal torment.
Aimiel
Well-known member
God also didn't say that everyone will be saved. He said that the way is narrow, and few find it. He said many are called but few are chosen. He said that all liars shall have their place in hell. He said that the torment won't cease.logos_x said:
I've never seen someone who's defending The Gospel twist Scripture. They're plenty who attempt to defend their own theology (twisted) who twist several verses, and some who twist almost everything they say (Universalists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.). Your recent rebuke by Knight stems from one of the flaws pointed out in Scripture to steer clear of: heaping to yourself teachers to feed your itching ears. You have to seek the understanding of 'learned' men to mis-understand The Word of God. You need to realize that He wrote it so the simple could understand It, and the wise would find only confusion. Universalism isn't merely confusion, it is heresy and blasphemy. Repent!!!
Aimiel said:
Is this the only type of response you're reduced to making?
One of us believes that God is capable of restoring his entire world, that God can accomplish all that he wills
One of us doesnt......
Out of the two - who limits the power and the will of God?
:think: :idea:
Aimiel said:
The only 'confusion' is in the doctrine of ET! There's no consistency among those who believe in it, if its so 'simple' then how come there are those who believe in literal torment and those who think its symbolic...
universalism being 'confusing' is just a total strawman, its anything but........!
logos_x
New member
Aimiel said:
Few are saved...right now. This has always been the case. The question is, are these few the only ones that will ever be saved.
As to the question whether God said that all would be saved eventually, I think He plainly said they would...in several places. He is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. What is meant by "especially"? these are the few that are saved in their lifetime on Earth...these will participate in the coming Kingdom Age, these wil even not be "hurt by the second death". But...if the second death is not a permenant condition...and I've already pointed out reasons to doubt it is, then there is no impossibilty in everyone ultimately being saved...although they miss out on a great deal before they are.
Those that are saved now, and in ages past, have life. they are alive during the coming Kingdom Age...are not hurt of the second death in the lake of fire and brimstone. This is the especially of believers of the all men being saved.
I don't believe the "especially" negates the "all men". He IS the savior of all men, but believers hold an "special" position with God. And, these are the sons of God...who when the manifestation of the sons of God occures...affect all creation...which includes, surely, all men...(see Rom 8:16-22).
There are many, many scriptures that testify Christ is the savior of the whole world. I don't see any "twisting" of scripture when one believes them for what they say.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Word of God also says that civil authorities are ministers of God. Why then will they not 'save' those on death row, since your 'idea' of God says that God isn't about revenge? These authorities are put in place by God. He ordained them. If you resist them you're resisting God's Law, and shall receive damnation. It is the fact that God deals with sin by judging it, and gives grace to those who humble themselves to Him that you seem to over look. He isn't going to save everyone, simply because He called Himself, "The Savior of All." He must keep His Word, and He said all liars have their place in hell. He said everyone whose name isn't written in The Lamb's book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. He wasn't kidding.logos_x said:
Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
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