BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

The worst thing about doctrines made by men are they offer false hope and comfort instead of Truth.

The worst things about the doctrines of men are the limitations that they place on the love and power of God

 

[logos_x]

The worst things about the doctrines of men are the limitations that they place on the love and power of God

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to red77 again. :thumb:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Eternal torment is simply the first lie ("You shall not surely die") repackaged.

You know, that really makes sense. No death in eternal torment either. This could
be one point for annihilation, but that's another debate

 

[Aimiel]

The worst things about the doctrines of men are the limitations that they place on the love and power of God

So God cannot overcome doctrines of men? God isn't big enough to do that? Universalists show thier true colors when they demonize orthodox Christians, by making them out as worse enemies of God than those who seek to subvert everything that is called good. It's funny how that happens, when you stray from the direction that God gives with His Word.

 

[PKevman]

Christianity. At the time, I hadn't heard any strong arguments for Universalism that were Biblically supported.

And you never will. Not when the verses are examined in context and with the entire rest of the Bible in mind.

 

[Rockhead]

The worst things about the doctrines of men are the limitations that they place on the love and power of God

Indeed. Limited is referenced one single time in the Scripture. You have limited the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Balder]

And you never will. Not when the verses are examined in context and with the entire rest of the Bible in mind.

If you are right, Pastor, then the "gospel" rests on a horror story of infinite proportions.

 

[PKevman]

If you are right, Pastor, then the "gospel" rests on a horror story of infinite proportions.

But you are so mistaken. The gospel doesn't rest on that. The gospel rests on the fact that Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God came to this earth and humbled Himself to become a man. He came as God in the flesh and walked upon the earth. He lived a sinless life and died to take the sins of mankind. He rose again three days later to prove that He has the power over death.

The gospel message simply rests in putting your faith and trust in this Jesus Christ and allowing Him to be the Lord of your life.

 

[PKevman]

Deal.

Again it was unitentional, I even made a note to myself to reference those items and still failed to do so.

(Actually I edited the references in.. but failed to save the additions in my editor before pasting it in to post :doh: )

At any rate...thank you for your understanding.

Here we go again:

Stephen, I am really disappointed to have to point this out because I thought you had learned before about posting your own material. Your latest post shows that you are still completely and totally pasting your information from tentmaker.org whenever you post any replies of any length. I know this will anger you to have me point this out to you, but maybe you should think about how much stock you are putting into what these people are saying.

Violating the spirit of debate on TOL:
At the very least this is still not what the heart of TOL is all about as I understand it. We could all just sit here and copy and paste stuff and pass it off as our own, but again that is not US debating or discussing these issues. You have been called on this several times to your own detriment, including in the Battle Royale, and you continue to do it. In this post you did not even reference the tentmaker site at all, so that it appears as if it is your own post:



http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1319480&postcount=1651

The fire that is not quenched part is found here word for word copied:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/j...hingonhell.html

That part is followed by the section that says "Perhaps the leading example" etc.... this can be found here again word for word copied:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

Here is what you said in the past in regards to these things: (remember the "Does Hell Exist" thread in which I called you on this?)

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1228998&postcount=625

Note that this was long before the Battle Royale and you said you would be "more careful to note these things"

Why is universalism SO FLIMSY that its adherents cannot make their own cognizant arguments without the use of other people's ideas and writings? I would be leery of embracing anything that could not be defended straight from the Word of God.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Logos.... you really have to stop doing this.

You know I like you but you can't post material posted on other websites without consent and without source citations. Please... I am begging you to stop this practice.

 

[red77]

So God cannot overcome doctrines of men? God isn't big enough to do that? Universalists show thier true colors when they demonize orthodox Christians, by making them out as worse enemies of God than those who seek to subvert everything that is called good. It's funny how that happens, when you stray from the direction that God gives with His Word.

Of COURSE God can overcome the doctrines of men! That was the point, whatever limiting doctrines that men might place on God isnt going to stop God achieving his purposes, and you are hardly being 'demonized' either, its just being pointed out to you that in your belief God CANNOT achieve his will in restoring his entire world, in fact in your belief God is incapable of restoring even half of it......
Like it or not ET limits God's power, his own will, and his love, even though God has already worked everything out within the counsel of his own will God cant achieve what he wants......

Wisdom of man: God can achieve his own will but only to a certain extent :doh:

 

[Aimiel]

But you are so mistaken. The gospel doesn't rest on that. The gospel rests on the fact that Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God came to this earth and humbled Himself to become a man. He came as God in the flesh and walked upon the earth. He lived a sinless life and died to take the sins of mankind. He rose again three days later to prove that He has the power over death.

The gospel message simply rests in putting your faith and trust in this Jesus Christ and allowing Him to be the Lord of your life.

Very succinct and it reveals where your heart is. Great post. You inspired me to award you my P. O. T. D. :first:

I've never read a more succinct summary of The Gospel. What a great testimony Kevin has. A man after God's Own Heart.

 

[Aimiel]

Of COURSE God can overcome the doctrines of men!

As He clearly demonstrated, by describing the rich man in hell, destroying universalist doctrine before it could sprout.

That was the point, whatever limiting doctrines that men might place on God isnt going to stop God achieving his purposes, and you are hardly being 'demonized' either, its just being pointed out to you that in your belief God CANNOT achieve his will in restoring his entire world, in fact in your belief God is incapable of restoring even half of it...

Quite the contrary, His will is accomplished, by giving men the greatest freedom a creator can, complete freedom, including his choice of ultimate end.

Like it or not ET limits God's power, his own will, and his love, even though God has already worked everything out within the counsel of his own will God cant achieve what he wants...

You're limiting His creative freedom, and don't even see it.

Wisdom of man: God can achieve his own will but only to a certain extent :doh:

Wisdom of universalism: God can achieve His Own Will, but only if He does as I've imagined.

 

[red77]

As He clearly demonstrated, by describing the rich man in hell, destroying universalist doctrine before it could sprout.Quite the contrary, His will is accomplished, by giving men the greatest freedom a creator can, complete freedom, including his choice of ultimate end.You're limiting His creative freedom, and don't even see it.Wisdom of universalism: God can achieve His Own Will, but only if He does as I've imagined.

Oh good grief.....the "rich man" is a parable - a story! Can you please explain to me - if this was a literal event especially at the time of telling- how a man can speak coherently if he's on fire???!!! And that even if he could he would ask for a DROP OF WATER FOR HIS TONGUE!!!!!!!!!! He wouldnt think to ask for the whole fire to be put out??????
As for the rest.......I'm limiting God's creative freedom by believeing he can restore HIS creation unto himself? That he works all things out within out the counsel of his will - but cant achieve his will in having all men come to a knowledge of the truth.......
what is the wisdom in your doctrine Aimiel? simple fact for you - you do not believe that God will reconcile his own creation simply by the constraints of you own doctrine, you believe that God can only restore and redeem a certain percentage of the world by your belief system - and a minor percentage at that, is this true or not?
If this is what you believe then - like it or not - you place limits on God's overall ultimate plans - which he works out within the conformity of the purpose of his will.......
God's love is limited, his power is limited - and his will is limited.........
Why on earth would I believe any human who told me that God could be restricted in any way Aimiel? Beacuse he gives man free will? Wouldnt that be part of God's plan from conception?

You limit God, like it or not.........:rain:

 

[Aimiel]

Oh good grief.....the "rich man" is a parable - a story! Can you please explain to me - if this was a literal event especially at the time of telling- how a man can speak coherently if he's on fire? And that even if he could he would ask for a DROP OF WATER FOR HIS TONGUE! He wouldnt think to ask for the whole fire to be put out?

He knows his fate. He knows that he isn't allowed any relief from the suffering. He knows he would't be granted the wish for the fire to be put out, even though you believe that it will be. He knows he can't have a shower or a bucket of water, and simply wants just a drop, thinking maybe he can convince Abraham to bend the rules, just that much. He also knows about his limitations. He knows that the 'great gulf' which has obviously been 'breached' for the sake of The Word of God so that Abraham and Lazarus might visit, to illustrate the point for Jesus' sake and all those who might believe upon Him for salvation due to the illustration is still so great that no one can cross it or have any form of communication with those who are damned. As for your question about him being able to speak coherently, The Lord is capable of doing as He wills, and giving a man enough relief from suffering to be able to answer Him is certainly within His Abilities, no matter how small your imagainary god might be.

 

[Balder]

He knows his fate. He knows that he isn't allowed any relief from the suffering. He knows he would't be granted the wish for the fire to be put out, even though you believe that it will be. He knows he can't have a shower or a bucket of water, and simply wants just a drop, thinking maybe he can convince Abraham to bend the rules, just that much. He also knows about his limitations. He knows that the 'great gulf' which has obviously been 'breached' for the sake of The Word of God so that Abraham and Lazarus might visit, to illustrate the point for Jesus' sake and all those who might believe upon Him for salvation due to the illustration is still so great that no one can cross it or have any form of communication with those who are damned. As for your question about him being able to speak coherently, The Lord is capable of doing as He wills, and giving a man enough relief from suffering to be able to answer Him is certainly within His Abilities, no matter how small your imagainary god might be.

Didn't you try to refute my comments about bodhisattvas ministering to people in hell by saying that that breach can never be crossed? Because here you are saying it is possible after all.

 

[red77]

He knows his fate. He knows that he isn't allowed any relief from the suffering. He knows he would't be granted the wish for the fire to be put out, even though you believe that it will be. He knows he can't have a shower or a bucket of water, and simply wants just a drop, thinking maybe he can convince Abraham to bend the rules, just that much. He also knows about his limitations. He knows that the 'great gulf' which has obviously been 'breached' for the sake of The Word of God so that Abraham and Lazarus might visit, to illustrate the point for Jesus' sake and all those who might believe upon Him for salvation due to the illustration is still so great that no one can cross it or have any form of communication with those who are damned. As for your question about him being able to speak coherently, The Lord is capable of doing as He wills, and giving a man enough relief from suffering to be able to answer Him is certainly within His Abilities, no matter how small your imagainary god might be.

I just dont know how to respond to this! You just cant accept that this isnt literal can you? Where does it say that God gave the rich man any respite from his suffering? Doesnt the rich man say he's in agony in the flame??! Even if he was given respite you would still think that he would only ask for a drop of water for his tongue????? Total supposition on your part and simple logic is against you, have you actually heard of symbolism??????
My small 'imaginary' God can restore his entire world Aimiel, can yours? :think:

 

[Ecumenicist]

But you are so mistaken. The gospel doesn't rest on that. The gospel rests on the fact that Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God came to this earth and humbled Himself to become a man. He came as God in the flesh and walked upon the earth. He lived a sinless life and died to take the sins of mankind. He rose again three days later to prove that He has the power over death.

The gospel message simply rests in putting your faith and trust in this Jesus Christ and allowing Him to be the Lord of your life.

He died for what? To take the sins of mankind? Upon Himself?

What is the good news? That He died for us when? When we were yet sinners?

And what can we do to save ourselves? Nothing? We are saved by what? The blood
of Christ, and not by our own works?

Gee, that's a Universalist message if I ever heard one...

 

[Ecumenicist]

Didn't you try to refute my comments about bodhisattvas ministering to people in hell by saying that that breach can never be crossed? Because here you are saying it is possible after all.

He's also ignoring 1 Peter 2:18

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

 

[Aimiel]

Didn't you try to refute my comments about bodhisattvas ministering to people in hell by saying that that breach can never be crossed? Because here you are saying it is possible after all.

Yes, it was; but for one thing bodhisattvas don't exist, and for another, that breach cannot be crossed; but with God all things are possible. He isn't subject to any restrictions, except those of His Own Character.