ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

His_saving_Grac

New member
Z-Man.

No, I haven't forgot. But what occured to me today is that it can't be that way.

You see, we see in the bible how often God punished the Israelites for forgetting Him and worshipping "other gods".

But I have to assume that what is glossed over is that if God was really upset at people worshipping other gods, why would He reward the Philistines/Caanites/Moabites/ ...et al.

Since this is contradictory to what we are taught in church, we have to dig deeper and figure out why. I am not sure how many people question, because most live their lives in fear of Him. I don't, so I ask.

I want to know how he can be contradictory in this in which he punishes the idolators by rewarding the idolators. If we believe the OT exactly as written, then we must also look at it from the other point of view. The POV of the non-chosen people.

For God to really have given his people into the hands of those is to enforce into the heads of the 'pagan' tribe that their gods actually did win. They never would have seen it as the Lord handing his people over for punishment, but that the gods they worshipped as blessing them, just the same way we see these stories in the POV of the Israelis.

So we have been lied to in our teaching. In the interpretations. The bible is extreemly biased, and the OT is written for those who see ghosts on a daily basis, and for thosae who are so ingrained that they never can concieve questioning God as anything but blasphemy.

These are the same people who taught us that Samson was a hero, when he really was a lechor, who couldn't control his sexual desires, nor his firm belief in vengence, even though he was the one who sarted the problem in the first place. (In Judges, after he had killed the lion, he gave a riddle to 30 people. It was a riddle that only pertained to him, dealing with the lion and the honey he found in the carcass, and that since it wasn't something one could possibly guess or deduce, he showed his demeanor and mindset. When he lost, much in the same way that he was decieving himself, he goes out and kills 30 people, and steals everything they own to pay off his debt in the bet. They don't like to tell you that in Sunday School).

Anyway, those who choose to look deeperinto the OT, knows that while much may be true, the majority is made in a biased manner. The same way we, as children, were taught the heroism of many who, on retrospect, show that there really wasn't much to admire in them.

So these stories were meant to scare people into Godliness. And the reason the jewish tribes left god so often was not really because they chose to sin, but because NO ONE can live their entire life in fear.

Since YOU have already looked deeper into the bible, you should also know that the anger shouldn't be with God, but with what we are taught about God.

After all, if we are taught that someone is a grweat hero, and when we see their true life against what we were told to see, we can do nothing BUT feel disillussioned. It is that or to deny. Too many christians are still living in denial. And to many who should be christians end up rejecting, much as you are doing.

The basic message is there in the bible. The stories we are told, are the lies. Just as Samson, and Gideon, and Jephthah, and Moses, and Lot, and Abraham, and all the rest were not perfect, neither are the stories we are taught. How would YOU like to have to tell a group of 7-10 year olds that Samson, while doing the work of God, was sleeping around with all types of women? That Lot slept with his daughters and they bore his children. That David was a lech, a murderer, a drunk, and a coward who let his son be punished for HIS sins? Just as YOU wouldn't say that to your children, they won't say that to any children.

The problem is that MILLIONS who attend sunday school, end up with only their teachings FROM sunday school in their minds. They NEVER read the stories as written in the bible. whne told about them, they usually do one of two thing. Reject completely God, or deny and live in fear, yet sin anyway and use the stories as a reason to continue to sin.

like you, if that was all that God was, and all I had was these stories, I would (and did) reject Him and them. But that isn't all I have. I can not deny what happened to me in the past, nor even what happened to me a little over a year ago. I have tried and tried to deny it, but I can't.

God isn't like the story built God of the OT, nor is He exactly the same way we get the picture in the NT either. Both texts embelish, or place bias on the truth. But God IS pure love, which I DO know. He is forgiveness. He is NOT up there laughing in derission, nor willing anyone to suffer, nor up there looking for vengence. I am not sure how ANY human could POSSIBLY hurt God that He would need to take vengence.

I don't believe in hell, as you already know. Nor do I believe satan is the evil fallen angel we are taught. Our concept of evil is God's concept of leaving his teachings. We placed the idea of an "evil" being to excuse our mistakes. That just doesn't cut it anymore for the scientific mind.

But neither does rejection cut it. The 'big bang" theory is just as much of a grasp as the idea of a being that knows and has existed much longer than we have. We now can create life from a cell. We are only human. Why can't there be a being that could create life millions of years ago when this planet was young?

If this were a sci-fi novel, it would be very much accepted, and much like most sci-fi novels, the concepts of the writer usually end up a reality. Space Flight was dreamed up before real flight had ever happened. The computor was in existance (in the mind of sci-fi writers) in it's present form before anyone ever even thought about Coleco vision. And Asminovs 3 rule concept for robots will probably be really enforced the minute we do develop artificial intelligence. Heck, God created artificial intelligence here in this forum often enough.

The point is that you deny this existence because of childrens stories. Stories told around campfires for millenia. It isn't God you are upset with, it is the teachings and the disillussionment that came with the actual reading. It is much like those who follow c.moore are going to feel. They are being lied to, and we were lied to.

But it doesn't have to end that way. You have evolved past the point where childrens stories in the bible have any kind of grasp on your clinical mind, yet the scientific childrens stories have just replaced them.

Just as I can not prove to you that I know personally that God DOES exist if you won't take me up on the hypnosis offer, you can not prove He doesn't. You CAN prove that the being we were taught was God is not anyone worth our worship, but that isn't the God I worship anyway. That, again, is the god of parents. The god who is taught to place fear into the minds of children to keep up a certain moral standard, and then to use as an excuse to use the all too human emotions of hate, rage, anger, deceit...

Do you see where I am coming from? I really do understand the reason one would go from pure belief into a total lack of belief. But I had the benefit of some experiances that wouldn't leave me alone for 20+ years, and then the last one.

Do you want to know the REAL definition of frustation? It is knowing something that only YOU have seen. I don't mean I am the onlyone to ever encounter God, but I am the only one who was there WHEN I encountered God. There were witnesses to the times where I had intervention, but no one was there when we talked.

Think on it this way. How do you think the world would react if you said you had seen a UFO AND talked with the aliens on board?

The worst part of frustration is knowing that the alien encounter would be more accepted by people than a personal encouter with God would be.

THAT, my friend, is the TRUE definition of frustration.
 

beanieboy

New member
goose said:
Zakath,

You forgot when God's prophets mock the wicked too. This is fun stuff!


Don't forget this part:
40 Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

Yeah. Fun.
 

beanieboy

New member
I was watching the Exorcist this weekend. One of the things that the priest said was that the reason for the demon possession was that Satan wanted to lie to us, and show us as ugly and unlovable, that we could never be loved by God.

Then I saw Margaret Cho's show. She talked about how, during her TV show, the producers told her that she was too fat, and she wasn't getting much acceptance from other comedians, etc., and starting doing drugs and being promiscuous. It didn't seem to change her around until she realized that she didn't have to believe that she was unsuccessful, fat, etc. She was worthy of love.

And that's what I had been saying since the beginning. I think that it is easier to push people away from God by focussing on sin, than it is to draw people closer by doing the same. However, if you can demonstrate love and acceptance, you can draw people toward God much easier.

What I see is people who say, "you are a sinner, you need to stop sinning, and then accept God. Otherwise, God won't love you." In fact, someone has told me that God hates me (and loves me.) But in truth, shouldn't we be showing love to one another, and bring people to God, so that He can change them? Who are any of us to say to another, "You need to go get cleaned up before God will love you." If we could do that ourselves, there would be no need for God.
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:


Don't forget this part:
40 Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

Yeah. Fun.
No, that's justice. Also, I don't see why Elijah couldn't have a little fun in his work. I'm sure it pleased him to please God about such things.
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:
...And that's what I had been saying since the beginning. I think that it is easier to push people away from God by focussing on sin, than it is to draw people closer by doing the same. However, if you can demonstrate love and acceptance, you can draw people toward God much easier.

What I see is people who say, "you are a sinner, you need to stop sinning, and then accept God. Otherwise, God won't love you." In fact, someone has told me that God hates me (and loves me.) But in truth, shouldn't we be showing love to one another, and bring people to God, so that He can change them? Who are any of us to say to another, "You need to go get cleaned up before God will love you." If we could do that ourselves, there would be no need for God.
We as christians CANNOT accept evil. This doesn't me we beat the wicked or cannot talk to them. It's the government's job to swiftly execute criminals. We as individuals must abhor evil and cling to what is good.

God strives with us today. He is working on us and for us. It's humans who deny Him. He will only be trying to help us for a finite amount of time. He will turn us over to a reprobate mind if we continue to hate Him. There will also come a time when God will stop trying with people, and will cast the wicked into an everlasting fire. You don't know if you will be here the next minute. The time is now! Does a farmer keep a diseased tree that doesn't produce good fruit? NO. He chops it down and kills what is left of it. So will God do unto the wicked.
Gen 6:3 "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."
He won't always try with you if you keep denying Him. If a child is physically struggling with his father so much, won't the father eventually let him go and do what it was that was wrong? The child loves what it was that was wrong more so than what his father told him was right. That is love out of free will, and God would rather have you love Him with your free will rather than bondage.
Rom 1:28-32 "And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness ... without natural affection(homosexuals), implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
People who do such things AND the people who like to see them carry on such actions, are worthy of death. We must abhor evil and cling to what is good.
Luk 3:16-17 "John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable."
Don't be the chaff! Repent and grow into good fruit and worthy to God!
 
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beanieboy

New member
You missed my point completely. I'm not surprised, really.

I saw that the what "the devil" wants us to believe is that we are unlovable by God. And then we don't even love ourselves. And then we become unhappy, try to fill it with alcohol or whatever.
And in critisizing someone about how bad they are, you only reinforce that.

You keep going back to the child who is rebellious. Often, all the kid ever wanted was some attention - to be loved, to have limits set. But if your kid cuts school and smokes, and you tell them that they are a lousy school skipping smoker, will that turn them around? It will probably make them rebel more. If my parents had said that they hated me for something I had done (see above post of how God loves and hates), such as getting drunk in high school, but would love me once I stopped, I wouldn't believe them. Love is not conditional, or shouldn't be.

What any of this has to do with execution of criminals is beyond me.
 

beanieboy

New member
beanieboy said:
You missed my point completely. I'm not surprised, really.

I saw that the what "the devil" wants us to believe is that we are unlovable by God. And then we don't even love ourselves. And then we become unhappy, try to fill it with alcohol or whatever.
And in critisizing someone about how bad they are, you only reinforce that.

You keep going back to the child who is rebellious. Often, all the kid ever wanted was some attention - to be loved, to have limits set. But if your kid cuts school and smokes, and you tell them that they are a lousy school skipping smoker, will that turn them around? It will probably make them rebel more. If my parents had said that they hated me for something I had done (see above post of how God loves and hates), such as getting drunk in high school, but would love me once I stopped, I wouldn't believe them. Love is not conditional, or shouldn't be.

What any of this has to do with execution of criminals is beyond me.
 

Goose

New member
Beanie,

I'm not missing the point. I understand what you're saying. I just disagree with your point and I'm proving God's and mine.
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:
I was watching Exorcist.....

Well, yours, at least.
I seem to be the only one who is successfuly quoting scripture, that no one else seems to be equivocal on. I guess I just don't quote Hollywood. I'd rather take God's Word for it.
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:
So, follow Elijah's example, and kill all the people that reject Jesus. Good Luck.
If God told me to, I would. But He didn't. It's the people who God appointed to take the lifes of them. God told me that much. You obviously are not heeding mine nor the Word of God. Why don't you read the bible all the way and try to understand for yourself instead of babbling about things you don't understand?
 

Goose

New member
I honestly don't know much about the crusades. All I know is that their where a couple of them and some were lead by the pope.
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Boy miss a couple of days and look out!

Boy miss a couple of days and look out!

bb-You asked:
One can love and hate simultaneously. Really? You could hate your son? Not what he did, but your son himself? And then, love him again? Huh. My heart doesn't work that way.
Well God’s heart does work that way. Look, the Bible never says anywhere “Hate the sin, love the sinner.” That is a cliché’ that helps send people to hell. If it were true then God could just strip us of our sin and throw it away and we would all be wonderful people. God says this about people:
Prov. 23:7 “For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.”
God does not hate our sin, he hates us when we sin because that is what we are.

In the example I gave you about a son raping his sister, I wouldn’t just hate what my son was doing to her. I would hate him. I would want to kill him, for the harm that he brought to her. After all it isn’t some nebulous thing that has made him do this act, it is him. His heart. It is what he is. And that is evil. It isn't the act which is evil, just as it isn't the gun that kills someone that is evil, but rather the person himself who wields the gun. So it is my son that I would hate. But there would still be that part of me that loves him because he is my son, and I would want him to repent (that is to turn away from the evil he has chosen), and stop harming his sister, the rest of his family, and himself.

As for your statement about tackling someone who is about to go over the cliff if you really loved them, I would say that is true, but it was only an analogy and of course all analogies break down at some point. Perhaps I should have used this analogy since it may be a bit closer (although since it is just an illustration to make a point it too will fail somewhere along the line, so try and remember that it is just an analogy…ok?).

Unlike the cliff analogy, where someone is certain to die within the next few seconds, just when exactly a person will embark on the next step to eternity is not usually known. It’s more like a person that smokes. You know that smoking will eventually kill you (if something else doesn’t first). I know that it will kill you as well. I also know that I can’t jump on you and make you stop smoking forever. So I will do what I can. Which is to warn you of the dangers of smoking.

Now you may not die today from cigarettes, nor even tomorrow, so I could have a lot of time to try and convince you, then again I may not, your heart may clog up with that nasty tar and stuff and just slam shut one minute from now.

And that is the way it is (to a point) with your choice of heaven or hell. You may have until you are a hundred to make the choice, or you may not have even a second more. We don’t know, and neither do you.

Am I unloving to not jump on your back and beat the snot out of you until you stop smoking? Of course not. Am I unloving if I never even warn you about it? Yes.

As for you not being unhappy as a homosexual, that is not true. You said that you never said that you were unhappy so how could I know something like that. I know that you are miserable in your current lifestyle because I know that you are without God. God made us to be in fellowship with him and when we are instead selfishly excluding God from our lives then we are, by nature, unhappy. That’s how I can know this about you.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
I think that it is easier to push people away from God by focussing on sin, than it is to draw people closer by doing the same. However, if you can demonstrate love and acceptance, you can draw people toward God much easier.
And this is a point I have been trying to make also BB.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
goose said:
Beanie,

I'm not missing the point. I understand what you're saying. I just disagree with your point and I'm proving God's and mine.
There is not one bit of "GOD" in your post. You are one of those who use God to justify your sick need.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
goose said:
If God told me to, I would. But He didn't. It's the people who God appointed to take the lifes of them. God told me that much. You obviously are not heeding mine nor the Word of God. Why don't you read the bible all the way and try to understand for yourself instead of babbling about things you don't understand?
And THAT, my friethe number one reason to NOT become a "christian".

You are a sick individual. Why don't YOU read the entire bible once.
 

Goose

New member
HSG,

I thought you weren't going to post to this thread anymore?

I'm on my second time around of reading the bible actually. For someone who preaches non-judge-righteous, silence and love, you sure seem to be hypocritical.
 
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