ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

Goose

New member
Godspell,

I read from King James Versions. Usually from the KJV Defender's Study Bible. Online, I use this:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Look up those verses you couldn't find there.

I'd like to know what you believe. Do you believe that a majority of people are going to hell? If so, I'd like for you to give me an example. I love the truth, and if I'm wrong I'd like for someone to show me.
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:


What is the obsession with child molestation?
I didn't say anything about child molestation. I said molestation.

Was Jesus saying, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" because they were sorry? No.
Did they ask forgiveness? No.
Was he saying, "No sweat with the cross thing. I was in my 30s anyway." No. It's ridiculous. Yet, he not only forgave everyone, but asked God to as well.
They were executing the Savior of the world! This is something that SOMEONE had to do. He wasn't going to kill himself. He didn't mean everyone on earth. Everyone on earth wasn't there chanting for his crucifiction in reality. On the cross, Jesus gave up his godliness to bear the wait of the worlds sins on his perfect shoulders. He HAD to do this. This is why he came to earth. To die for our sins.

Denying Christ, for everyone, even today is eternal damnation. But through his blood you have a way to repent. That's why Jesus had to take all the sin in the world. As a new christian this is too big of a topic for me to go into and you'd miss the point. I'll end up wasting your time and not get very far. Could anyone help explain this? I'm just gonna confuse him. Matter of fact, isn't it after the new covenant that the law would be written in the hearts of men?
 
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beanieboy

New member
Maybe Jesus should have thanked the people for killing him, if it had to be done. I have thoughts on that, but that is a whole new thread.

Regardless, I decided to look up "forgive" in the dictionary. The definition was to no longer hold resentment.

You are saying that you no longer hold resentment, nor act angry, yet you do not forgive those who do not ask forgiveness. So, I don't understand what you have left that means "nonforgiveness." I think we have different difinitions that we are talking about.

Jesus says that if a person strikes you, to offer the other cheek. To actually be passive when another is agressive. To not fuel the fire. That's all that I am saying. If I was molested, would I just sit there? No. I am not an extremist. I would report it to authorities, let them handle it, and let it go. I wouldn't right it down on "sins X has done against me," and keep it in my holy book. I would just let him face the consequences of his actions, deal with it, and then forgive and move on.
 

Goose

New member
BeanieBoy,

I'd agree that we are not at a solid understanding of eachother.

Jesus didn't want to die. In the garden before his trials, He pleaded with God asking Him for another way. Yet, sometime later, Peter tells Jesus to run away and that he doesn't have to be given to the authorities. Jesus told Peter, "Get behind me Satan". More than anything, Jesus wanted to do His Father's Will, no matter what the cost. So, there's a fine line, with everything that we do by faith.

The "turn the other cheek" passage is actually talking about taking out vengeance for yourself. Not necessarily being passive. Don't take vengeance out on people. They're expecting you too. That's the government's and God's to deal with. Instead, do something good to them. Not as encouragement, but to make them aware of what they're doing. It will be like hot coals on their brains. I don't think Jesus was talking about big time criminals or people wanting to rape and kill you. He was talking about people who love he world and the things in it. This is the non-veangeful attitude Jesus wants us to have I believe.

Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. No matter how hard I try, I can't forget things. Especially if someone does something bad to me. And if the person doesn't ask for forgivness, it will be used against him in the day of judgement.
 

Goose

New member
His_saving_Grac said:
So, goose, you are saying the Jesus was just a man, and not God in the flesh?

He KNEW he had to die.

He was both. He knew he would fulfill the scriptures and have to be raised up, if that's what you mean.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
It was actually your statement that He didn't want to die. As God, He never did 'die', only had a fleshly body destroyed, and then ressurected. We end up using the term "die" only in our basic understanding, and end up ignoring the difference between what the bible teaches about life and death in it's physical form, and what it teaches about life and death in the spiritual form. It states often that death to the body is actually life to the soul if we follow our teachings and walk the walk Christ did. In that sense, (and that is the only sense we SHOULD think) we must realize the platitude we tell others when a person close to us dies in the flesh. That ha/she has gone to a bette place.

When we realize this, if God was in the flesh of Jesus, God actually could not die, but only have his physical vessel destroyed. He knew, since he originated there, that this death was only temporary. After all, He created His own home, and nothing can stop Him from going there.

We, on the other hand, have to have faith to believe we are going to a place we have never seen after death. Their is a very big diference between what we believe, and what we know. By this I mean not in just religious doctrine, but in everyday life.

Jesus/God suffered for us. But He knew it was a temporary suffering. He had control over how long He suffered and when to finish the pain.

But Jesus/man could NOT know that for sure, just as we don't. We can end our physical suffering ourselves, but to do so in many faiths dooms us to both spritual and physical death. Jesus/man had no control over when the agony was to stop. Jesus/man had to have the same faith we have, and know in His heart that God never had forsaken Him.

Which is where, if we study the NT, we end up debating and losing many paople who would accept the faith. They ask, "How can God die"? Since we and they have faith God can't die, they question the godhood/diety of Jesus. The muslim faith basically accepts much of our OT scripture, but place Jesus as a Holy Spirit filled prophet, on par, or just under, the prophet Mohamed. Judaich faith also places Him as a prophet, yet reject His teaching as God inspired. Placed together, these two beliefs along with atheism and all other religious faiths ends up making over 75% of the world reject the Godhood of Jesus. If we are to stay with out faiths, we must address this point.

We are taught about how Jesus was God on earth, yet He prays on earth to God. So that makes it hard to understand how He could have been God in the flesh. After all, how many times are YOU going to follow someone who prays and talks to him/herself constantly?

Then there is another teaching in which Jesus is part of a triune God. Again, we need to address why, if Jesus was part of God, why would He ask why God had forsaken Him. As part of God, He would know that God hadn't, and would never have stated something, even in pain, so contrary to what he was called and taught.

That leaves us with two other possibilities. One is the total rejection of Jesus/God, and the other is that Jesus/man was in close contact with God, much as Moses was, and was filled with the knowledge God had given Him, much as we ourselves realize many truths from God when we study the bible, our in our daily walk in physical life.

Those who take the rejection path end up being most of our population on earth. Those who take the other path believe that they do not have to reject the teachings of Jesus without having to worship Him in the Godhead.

Which is why I asked the question.
 
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Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
Goose

Goose

Excellent Goose, you are exactly right. Jesus was speaking of a personal affront, like an insult. Think of the adjoining passage in terms of criminal law and it becomes obvious that it is not what He was referring to:
Matt. 5: 40-41 “If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. “And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
If this were talking about crime, like say a man wanted to rape your wife, would Jesus be saying for you not to resist him but let him have your daughter also? And should you tell him to take two hours raping them instead of one? Of course not.

As for judging we need to get practicing. We have a big job ahead of us.
1 Cor. 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
 

Goose

New member
Wisdom

Wisdom

Judgment is the product of wisdom. Righteous judgment is when you discern right from wrong without hypocrisy and with an understanding heart. It's the outward appearence of your wisdom. Disapproval and/or praise are great examples. Let's look at what God says to Solomon when he asks God for discernment and wisdom:

1Ki 3:11-12 "And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment; Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee."
If curious, read the whole chapter here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki003.html

We have to pray to God with an open and understanding heart to grant us wisdom. It's important and elementary to want and need wisdom/discernment! We need to strive to become adult Men in Christ and not stay as Babes in Christ.

Knowledge and discernment/wisdom are two different things. It's important to have a balance of both.
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word,that ye may grow thereby:
Hbr 5:12-14 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

It's important to discern:
Mat 16:2-3 "He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"
The world tells us that we cannot judge. God tells us to "judge righteous judgment"(Jhn 7:24). Brothers, if it's essential for us to judge all things since we are spiritual(1Cr 2:15), then we need to learn to do it right. Start teething and start chewing on the meat, so that we may eat the meat of the Word and wax in Strength and Spirit.

Peace and God Bless

P.S. Lion, thank you for the support!
 
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Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
Honey I'm home.

Honey I'm home.

Goose-Great answer. I would just add one passage.
2Tim. 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

When Christians say we should not judge, because they take a verse here or there out of context, then they are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Each word of the Bible needs to be taken in the context of the sentence. Each sentence in context with the verse. Each verse with the chapter, Chapter with book, and book with the entirety of the Bible.

The big picture is essential in understanding the Bible. Otherwise you miss the forest for the trees.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
As for judging we need to get practicing. We have a big job ahead of us.
Unbelievable!

"Hey there God, I am hating just like you said. What's that? You don't WANT us to hate or seek vengence? Well, tough, I am full of rage and hate and I am going to do it anyway, to satisfy my carnal urge for blood!"
 

Goose

New member
His_saving_Grac said:
Unbelievable!

"Hey there God, I am hating just like you said. What's that? You don't WANT us to hate or seek vengence? Well, tough, I am full of rage and hate and I am going to do it anyway, to satisfy my carnal urge for blood!"
HSG,

I just did a word search for the word hate. The word "hate" only appeared in your post.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
goose said:

HSG,

I just did a word search for the word hate. The word "hate" only appeared in your post.
Yes, as a four letter word, it is only in my post. But the meaning of it is in your and Lions posts.

I don't really care what term YOU decide to use for it, it still boils down to an urge for power over other (lacking the grace of God) and the need to express you anger and rage without feeling guilty about it.

So use whatever term you want. But think if someone came to your house expressing the same attitude that has been posted here, and think about how long you would put up with it before kicking him/her out.

God is much more full of grace than we can ever be. Yet that won't stop him from kicking you out of his house. Your rage and anger has already kicked him out of his temple.

So judge away. Ignore the NT and what Jesus said. And enjoy your short time on earth. Unless you change, it will be the last time you ever feel enjoyment again.
 

Goose

New member
HSG,

For someone so outspoken on not judging, you sure do a lot of it. I think that's called hypocrisy. I used to think along the same lines until I realized that I had a to judge things or I was going to vegetate. I have to make choices and I have to choose what is right from what is wrong. We need to teach people to make righteous judgments. I don't see what your hang-up on this issue is.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Whatever. It isn't me that judged you, it is the NT. It is Jesus. As I said, enjoy your rage. That is the typical Enyartian response. Maybe you should go and read the thread "judge rightly" in which I have stated many times that we all judge every waking moment. The part you don't understand it the "righteously".

Apparently, you are another who feels you can improve on God's eternal judgement. It seems those who argue most for judging "righteously" show they do feel an eternity of suffering is not enough. They must have it in this life also.

As I said, read what Jesus said. You can take it up with Him when you meet Him. I had left this thread because it made me physically ill to see the narrow mindedness and inability to see the word of God spread throughout the NT. I will leave this thread again, so that all of you who feel God's punishment isn't enough can "flock together".

Nice speaking with you though. If you ever want to talk, I be in many other threads. And, if you will, pardon me if I decide to not respond to a post full of anger.

Bless you and all those you love, goose. May the grace of God find you open and willing for His love.
 

Goose

New member
HSG,

I need to know your view on judgment. It sounds like you equate judgment with hate. I don't see how the two are synonymous. I want to understand where you are coming from.
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
Love love love

Love love love

I have no problem with hating.

The only way to judge righteously is to use God’s Word as our basis for judging.

As for hate, well God hates:
Psa. 5:5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
And I hate also.

I hate evil;
Psa. 97:10 You who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.
Unrighteousness;
Psa. 45:7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
God’s enemies;
Psa. 139:21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.
and hypocrisy;
Matt. 23:28 “Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
So how many people do I want to go to hell? None. I want all to turn to God and accept the wonderful gift that His Son paid for with His life.

As an Ambassador for Christ it is my job to make myself available to the Holy Spirit to help lead those lost souls to the LORD.

But if they chose to make themselves enemies of God…. Then I will hate them with a perfect hatred.

Here’s a few more… they are just soooo good!
Deut. 7:10 “and He repays those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him; He will repay him to his face.
2Chr. 19:2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you.

Psa. 101:3 I will set nothing wicked before my eyes; I hate the work of those who fall away; It shall not cling to me.

Psa. 119:113 I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law.

By the way I thought you weren’t talking to me Curly.

Rom. 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
 
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beanieboy

New member
It's amazing how many times this conversation continues to go back to definition.

The world does not tell you that you cannot judge. People stand trial and are held accountable for their crimes. People talk of being a "good judge of character." People refer to their "best judgement."

But it comes down to this - the judgement as CONDEMNATION, ie. "You're going hell! Have a nice life!" The judgement of "I'm better than you are."

That is what the world dislikes. You know. The girl who walks with her friends down the hall and says, "she's a slut. He's such a stoner. Man, look how fat that girl is. I'm not. I get straight A's. I'm so glad I'm not like THEM!"

She's annoying to be around, and puts other people down to feel better.

It's EXTREMELY EASY to unfairly judge someone - to judge the book by the cover, to jump to judgement. And that is all anyone of "the world" has a problem with.

I have made several posts that have been very pointed. I have said to Freak that he was self exhaulting in the way he was constantly bragging about all the good things he did for God, how everyone who didn't agree with his point of view was a heretic, and how many threads he started that were about himself, and that his point was to draw attention to himself, and not God. I also called him a coward for making a statement, but refusing to answer for it, or at least say he had no answer. Those are strong "judgements." But they are conclusions that I came to over a series of posts he made.

I don't think he is a bad person because of it, but I refused to be quiet about it anymore. Judgement of that sort can help people grow. But simply calling people names, and haughtily turning on your heal only displays your lack of love, compassion, and maturity.

Many people here are obsessed on the judgement issue, and if they would spend a quarter of that time focusing on love, I would think that they may change their view. Corinthians says that the thing we are to pray for the most is love. Jesus said it was the greatest commandment. Yet, the discussion always turns to this ugly control oriented judgement stance, of trying to make oneself God, and judge one's neighbor, and disregarding love altogether, claiming that "judging IS being loving." Sometimes, yes. And sometimes, it's just the easy way out of doing the hard work of loving someone by turning the other cheek, using gentleness, being generous, offering your help with no expectation of reward, etc.
 
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beanieboy

New member
Re: Wisdom

Re: Wisdom

goose said:
Judgment is the product of wisdom. Righteous judgment is when you discern right from wrong without hypocrisy and with an understanding heart. It's the outward appearence of your wisdom. Disapproval and/or praise are great examples.
P.S. Lion, thank you for the support!

Exactly how does Lion's approach - his cheesy concordance search for all biblical verses pertaining to hatred, and God's hatred of evil, and in some instances, God's apparent hatred of individuals, as well as Lion's insistence that christians "get judging" while mentioning very little about being understanding, careful discernment, being slow to anger, etc. work out with this "discerning right or wrong without hypocrisy and an understanding heart and wisdom" definition?

What does "judging righteously" mean to you, Lion? Do you agree with this definition? It seems contrary to what you say.
 
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