ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Yorzhik]

I'm still undecided about the Open/Settled issue.

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms how God knowing what I will do tomorrow means that I have no choice and that he caused my actions?

thanks

See my post just before this one.

 

[Yorzhik]

What Scripture teaches this?

Come let us reason together.

 

[Yorzhik]

Nang's question is non-sequitor; There is no scripture that teaches that foreknowledge is causal but that doesn't prove that it isn't. It isn't because knowledge of a thing does not cause a thing. Foreknowledge is incompatible with free will but it isn't because it is causal but because it logically eliminates all possible outcomes but one leave us without the ability to choose and therefore without freedom.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm saying that exhaustive foreknowledge is a special case. Non-exhaustive foreknowledge does not cause events. However, exhaustive foreknowledge must include the first cause, and thus coupled with exhaustive foreknowledge the first cause becomes all causes.

 

[godrulz]

If we are talking about the first cause being the one with exhaustive foreknowledge, then obviously the first cause is the entirety of causes. So in that case exhaustive foreknowledge is causal.

But perhaps we have a situation where a caused being is given exhaustive foreknowledge by the first cause. Thus, a being with exhaustive foreknowledge is not necessarily a cause for any particular event but holds simple foreknowledge as you describe. But then the "caused holder of knowledge" is merely a part of the first cause, and thus the being with exhaustive foreknowledge exists or existed encompassing all cause.

Je ne comprend pas

 

[DFT_Dave]

God knew the fate of Adam. God determined and ordained what Adam's fate would be. God did not cause Adam's sin.

All I see is that you do not understand the difference between Godly foreknowledge and Godly ordination.

For example: God had foreknowledge of the treachery of Judas Iscariot, who was ordained by God to betray His Son.

Judas Iscariot is held responsible for his betrayal, despite God's foreknowledge of what he would do.

Dave: But can Judas be held responsible if God had ordained him to do it?

Judas Iscariot is held responsible for his betrayal, despite that God ordained that he would do it.

I hope you see this is also what you are saying and I hope that you see that it makes no sense. For God to ordain something is to make it happen and Judas therefore had no choice in the matter and he cannot be held responsible for what he did. You will say that I am therefore denying the word of God that holds him responsible when in fact, if you can read, I do believe that Judas is responsible for his betrayal, I am denying that God foreknew or ordained this "before the creation of the world". He foreknew it only as Christ began his ministry.

I know your inner heart complaint . . .you are complaining that God did not prevent Adam, or any of the rest of us, from sinning. You are angry that God let any of us sin. How dare He not stop us!

And in the same breath, you want to remain a person possessing a "free" will, to do what you want at all times.

Please, spare me your phychopathology crap!

Well, either God prevents sinners from sinning according to their limited nature of dust; thereby proving He has created a world of fleshly robots . . .

Or man is responsible before God for his actions without interference from God above.

So what do you choose?

You are griping about how God made all of us. Rather than giving God credit and glory for saving any of us.

The unsaved certainly have something to "gripe" about if what you believe is true. My "gripe" is that you and many others are presenting Christianity as an "irrational faith", OV is the only rational explaination that I have studied.

 

[Nang]

You will say that I am therefore denying the word of God that holds him responsible when in fact, if you can read, I do believe that Judas is responsible for his betrayal, I am denying that God foreknew or ordained this "before the creation of the world". He foreknew it only as Christ began his ministry.

That is not what Jesus taught, nor what the Scriptures say.

Jesus said He would lose none of those the Father gave Him to save, other than "the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12b

What Scripture?

"Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." Psalm 41:9

"For it is not an enemy who reproaches me; then I could bear it. Nore is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me; then I could hide from him. But it was you, a man my equal, my companion and my acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked to the house of God in the throng." Psalm 55:12-14


"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." Zechariah 11:12&13

"And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver." Matthew 26:15

"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders . . .Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value." Matthew 27:3, 9, Jeremiah 32:6-9

God prophesied of the betrayal of His Son in great detail, even before the incarnation. And Scripture was fulfilled in Judas Iscariot, who was a disciple and friend of Jesus and sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver, just as God ordained He would.

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

Nang,
I will answer these scriptures but will you please answer the rest of what I wrote?

Posted by Nang
God knew the fate of Adam. God determined and ordained what Adam's fate would be. God did not cause Adam's sin.

All I see is that you do not understand the difference between Godly foreknowledge and Godly ordination.

For example: God had foreknowledge of the treachery of Judas Iscariot, who was ordained by God to betray His Son.

Judas Iscariot is held responsible for his betrayal, despite God's foreknowledge of what he would do.

Posted by Dave
But can Judas be held responsible if God had ordained him to do it?

Judas Iscariot is held responsible for his betrayal, despite that God ordained that he would do it.

I hope you see this is also what you are saying and I hope that you see that it makes no sense. For God to ordain something is to make it happen and Judas therefore had no choice in the matter and he cannot be held responsible for what he did.

 

[Lon]

Hey Lon,

Here is something to think about. If the future is settled, is there a such a thing as a conditional prophecy? Or one could ask, "If the future is settled, is there such a thing as conditional?"

How can God make a conditional prophecy when he knows the outcome of the conditional? If I promise you $50 for cleaning my bike but know you can't clean my bike because I don't have one, did I really make a true promise?

This is a consistent OV problem that even Godrulz falls for on occassion in his reasoning of a nonOV position. It is the idea that what is unconditional to God is unconditional also to us. While I don't like 'illusion' of freewill theology, it is very important to recognize that God's truth is different than ours, always. Any similarity is coincidental in understanding and imago deo by design.

I don't like the chess 'game' analogy at all, for it has a lot of analogous extrapolation, but it would be like an omniscient opponent playing one without it.

You have to examine that truth from both angles, so while I don't like the analogy in almost every circumstance of observation, it is simple enough to empathize with both players AND their differing perspectives so that a faulty extrapolation is cured.

The goose and the gander must be approached from their own perspective.

Kight also made this assessment when He switched perspectives midsentence from God to man. The answer to prophecy or an omniscient question is answered differently and it is important to remain consistent in proposing a perspective. I see this as a great need from OV to understand a nonOV perspective. The confusion is real, and it needs special consideration in each and every discussion or you extrapolate faultily (we have to do the same, OV often puts God and man on the same plane of understanding where nonOV would have to recognize the shift to appreciate where an OV statement is coming from).

 

[DFT_Dave]

Posted by Dave
You will say that I am therefore denying the word of God that holds him responsible when in fact, if you can read, I do believe that Judas is responsible for his betrayal, I am denying that God foreknew or ordained this "before the creation of the world". He foreknew it only as Christ began his ministry.

Posted by Nang
That is not what Jesus taught, nor what the Scriptures say.

Now I see that you understand what a contradiction is. You are rightly challenging my comments as contradicting the scriptures you are quoting, and I will answer them and we will see if I have indeed done so or not.

The question is, how do we or anyone else know when a contradiction has taken place? I have pointed out a contradiction in your argument and I want an explanation from you as to why you think you have not done so, or an acknowledgement that you have.

And I suggest if you won't consider my comments and answer my question then stop asking me or anyone else to consider your comments and answer your questions.

 

[Nang]

Posted by Dave
But can Judas be held responsible if God had ordained him to do it?

Yes, because Judas willfully betrayed his friend in unbelief.

For God to ordain something is to make it happen and Judas therefore had no choice in the matter and he cannot be held responsible for what he did.[/COLOR]

Again, you are complaining that God created Judas to function as a vessel of wrath.

"Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me thus?'" Romans 9:20

The biblical principle is this:

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people." Genesis 50:20*

We see a vessel of wrath causing evil; but we also see Sovereign God overruling and bringing good out of evil, for the salvation of His people. Judas willfully betrayed the Christ; but God ordained his betrayal would be the salvation of the sons of God.

What we see here is Godly justice working hand in hand with Godly grace. And God has ordained both. There is a purpose for both. Through Godly justice, willful wickedness is being eliminated. Through Godly grace, an elect people are being saved unto everlasting life.

*"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28

 

[DFT_Dave]

Posted by Dave
But can Judas be held responsible if God had ordained him to do it?

Posted by Nang
Yes, because Judas willfully betrayed his friend in unbelief.

Posted by Dave
For God to ordain something is to make it happen and Judas therefore had no choice in the matter and he cannot be held responsible for what he did.

Posted by Nang
Again, you are complaining that God created Judas to function as a vessel of wrath. "Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me thus?'" Romans 9:20

Judas cannot be justifiably or rationally held responsible if God ordained his sin, and if he was formed to be a vessel of wrath by God he could not have acted out of his own will. But thank you for demonstrating the absurdity of your theology and thank God for OV.

 

[Lon]

I'd said I'd rewrite these so they'd make more sense. I'm hopeful this go around will lead to clarity.

-If God does not know future exhaustively, how much does He know? Is it limited to determinism?By determinism, I meant, does God only know what He decides about the future? (decide=determinism). I'm trying to figure out any instance and explanation of the OV position concerning what future God does know.

-If God made Adam with a faulty sin valve, did He know about it? Was it faulty? How is God impinged or expunged? Specifically, if man had ability to sin, how could we be considered a perfect creation if freewill can choose sin?

-What was necessary for man to have choice? What factor had to be part of Adam's makeup for this to work?

-How is God's omnicompetence accomplished if He does not know outcomes?

-How do you handle difficult passages like Revelation with interaction if the future is impossible to travel to? If it was not future, is it merely predictive or absolute?
How can you know?

-God promises in glory, that all tears and sorrow will be eliminated. We understand that sin will be erradicated also. How is this accomplished if we really do have freewill? Do we lose it at Heaven's doorstep?

If I still need to clarify further, please comment. Again, it wasn't so much a comprehensive treatement of questions but just a few to get perspective.
Thanks again, those of you who addressed this initially.

In Him

Lon

 

[DFT_Dave]

Can we discuss what is lost and what is gained from each perspective?

No, OV theists don't synthesize opposing views nor use a dialect methodology to search for truth.

OV would state God could not know, specifically by His own volition because He has the power to know. If I'm understanding correctly.

No, your not understanding it correctly.

A nonOV position would state that God must know for He has Foreknowledge (some in differing perspectives would say exhaustive). Furthermore, He could not be competent if there were too many contingencies (this or a variance is leveled often toward the OV position).

So one side suggests an impossibility and claim that nonOV has God in a tyrannical position. The other, that God is much smaller and unable.

What I'd like to hear is exactly what is lost and what is gained in the respective viewpoints.

Here are a few leading questions but expound anything that is pertinent.

-If God does not know future exhaustively, how much does He know? Is it limited to determinism?

-If God made Adam with a faulty sin valve, did He know about it? Was it faulty? How is God impinged or expunged?

-What was necessary for man to have choice? What factor had to be part of Adam's makeup for this to work?

-How is God's omnicompetence accomplished if He does not know outcomes?

-How do you handle difficult passages like Revelation with interaction if the future is impossible to travel to? If it was not future, is it merely predictive or absolute?
How can you know?

-God promises in glory, that all tears and sorrow will be eliminated. We understand that sin will be erradicated also. How is this accomplished if we really do have freewill? Do we lose it at Heaven's doorstep?

I could post more, but I just want to get to a treatise on the OV that is a bit more cogent than just a mere thread post if possible.

In Him

Lon

Most of your questions are discussed in other threads. I would be glad to answer those that I think fit within this one.

 

[Lon]

Hi Dave

Hi Dave

Most of your questions are discussed in other threads. I would be glad to answer those that I think fit within this one.

I agree, synthesis isn't my desire. Comparison, however is. I find that we have some commonality and disagreement, but I find that viewing one another from extremes and misunderstanding is worse than synthesis. It is falsifying even if done in ignorance.

Your 'no' to the first statement is a case in point. But whereas saying 'no' is one thing, explaining is another, and that is what is needed.

OV would state God could not know, specifically by His own volition because He has the power to know. If I'm understanding correctly.

See, the 'no' could mean I have it all wrong, some wrong, or just a point incorrect.

So I really need to hear your perspective AND understand it in order to agree or disagree. While I appreciate we are two different perspectives, I don't want to make a faulty assumption or toss you off as a heretic without hearing your perspective, hence these questions.

So yes, thanks, again, I'm not trying to reinvent discussions here, I was just trying to get to the meat of several discussion topics that were current at the time.

In Him

Lonnie

 

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by Lonster
-If God does not know future exhaustively, how much does He know? Is it limited to determinism? By determinism, I meant, does God only know what He decides about the future? (decide=determinism). I'm trying to figure out any instance and explanation of the OV position concerning what future God does know.

Closed/no free will model
This view is coherent. God acts into history and ordains all things. God is timeless and therefore knows and determines all things at the same eternal moment. In God's eternity there is no past nor future so everything that happens in the world and everything that God does is eternal as well. Neither God nor man has free will.

Closed/free will model
This view is simply incoherent. God acts into history and ordains all things. God is timeless and therefore knows and determines all things at the same eternal moment. In God's eternity there is no past nor future so everything that happens in the world and everything that God does is eternal as well. That God and man have free will in this context is a contradiction and will never make sense.

Open/free will model
God acts into history but does not ordain all things. There is time in God. God acts sequentially and does not do everything all at once. God has a past and a future. God has infinite ability to do whatever he wants and is completely free to do what ever, when ever, and where ever he wants in an eternity of unlimited time and space. Man has finite ability and limited freedom to do what he can do in a temporal world of limited time and space.

The question of what God did foreknow and what he did predetermine is revealed in a case by case study of Scripture. These questions are, obviously, only relevant in the open view.

 

[baloney]

Open/ free will sounds incoherent.

Explain "There is time in God."

You then say God is in an eternity of unlimited time and space. Explain how this last comment does not contradict your first comment.

 

[Lon]

Thank you Dave

Thank you Dave

Originally Posted by Lonster
-If God does not know future exhaustively, how much does He know? Is it limited to determinism? By determinism, I meant, does God only know what He decides about the future? (decide=determinism). I'm trying to figure out any instance and explanation of the OV position concerning what future God does know.

Closed/no free will model
This view is coherent. God acts into history and ordains all things. God is timeless and therefore knows and determines all things at the same eternal moment. In God's eternity there is no past nor future so everything that happens in the world and everything that God does is eternal as well. Neither God nor man has free will.

Closed/free will model
This view is simply incoherent. God acts into history and ordains all things. God is timeless and therefore knows and determines all things at the same eternal moment. In God's eternity there is no past nor future so everything that happens in the world and everything that God does is eternal as well. That God and man have free will in this context is a contradiction and will never make sense.

Open/free will model
God acts into history but does not ordain all things. There is time in God. God acts sequentially and does not do everything all at once. God has a past and a future. God has infinite ability to do whatever he wants and is completely free to do what ever, when ever, and where ever he wants in an eternity of unlimited time and space. Man has finite ability and limited freedom to do what he can do in a temporal world of limited time and space.

The question of what God did foreknow and what he did predetermine is revealed in a case by case study of Scripture. These questions are, obviously, only relevant in the open view.

Excellent summary post of comparison and contrast. Thank you.

Several from OV persuassion have said that God willingly chooses to not know future contingency, but that He is capable of such if and when He desires.

I took this to mean, when it was expressed, that God does know certain future events, as an act of determinism in what He ordains in the future.

What did I miss on my initial statement? I'm still perplexed you said 'no.' I'm not finding the disagreement.

Thanks again.

In Him

Lon

 

[elected4ever]

It is imposable to deny the foreknowledge of God and to be Honest with one's self. It is imposable to assign causality to foreknowledge without making the self will of man the will of God. The choices made by the self will of man, though foreknown by God, does not make those choices the will of God or that those choices are the fault of God. Not only are the choices of man against the plan of God foreknown to God but His response to those choices of man are foreknown to God.

The Calvinist and the OVers on this board do believe that foreknowledge is causeal and one is willing to believe that God is the mother of all evil because God foreknew and the OVer, to their credit, refuses to assign sin to God, deny the foreknowledge to their discredit. Both are willing to say it is all God's fault and refuse the guilt that is man's exclusively.

 

[Clete]

Then why is Nineveh historically recognized and examined as a pile of ash?

Two big mounds, to be exact.

The destruction of Nineveh had nothing to do with Jonah's prophecy.

If a prophet of God gives a warning of impending descruction and then gives a date on which that descruction is going to happen as part of the prophecy then if that date comes and goes without the destruction happening then God did not do that which He said He would do. How dificult is that to understand? What if Nineveh had just been wiped out by a volcano last week? Would you still maintain that God had fulfilled Jonah's prophecy? Obviously not! The timing was a key portion of the prophecy and in fact was likely the portion of it that caused the Ninevites to repent.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Yar, it is not easily defendable if it were unconditional prophecy and then not immediately fulfilled. I do not see it as unconditional prophecy. I know OV doesn't either, at least not with a relational God, because as I reason out your view (and I may be misunderstanding something here), if God can make a change, then you would have to conclude no prophecy is fully unconditional wouldn't you? I'd be interested to see your exposition on how OV sees any prophecy, for a God who is relational would necessitate all prophecy not being unconditional wouldn't it? If it is able to be changed due to relationships, how could there ever be an unconditional prophecy?

Rather, I see this either as a promise that would be fulfilled w/o repentance or a conditional prophetic statement.

I know most here do not cotton to that notion, so I'm asking a bit more for understanding your's. Thanks

In Him

Lon

Most prophecy is conditional but not all. Some prophecy has to do with things which God has promised to bring about UNILATERALLY. That is, they are not conditioned upon the actions of men or lacktherof but are dependent entirely upon God Himself. As I've pointed out before, a couple of good examples are the glorification of the Body of Christ and the creation of the new Heaven and new Earth. There are several others.

Resting in Him,
Clete