musterion
Well-known member
Once again Dan brings the facts!
ECT Apostle, apostle, who's got the apostle!
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
Once again Dan brings the facts!
musterion
Well-known member
The questions are asked simply to spark the questioning of some typically unexamined assumptions. So if I may ask you this: what justification is there to split the gift of apostles off as inactive from the presumed active gifts of pastors and teachers? Scripturally, I mean.
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Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
musterion
Well-known member
As miraculous giftings? That is what I believe, yes. Hence the order to STUDY the Word of God in order to be approved. Any of us can do that, and we're expected to. Why study to be approved when God could just gift you, or gift someone at whose feet you sit?
Yeah. Pentecostalism/charismaticism as a whole has done wonders for discernment and has always promoted maturity and non-carnality.
musterion
Well-known member
You're making our point there, Tot.
If they're gifts, they're not miraculous but are drawn from an accurate, rightly divided knowledge of the Word of God, which means ANY believer can attain to such gifts, not that God parcels them out to certain specially chosen individuals (which is the foundation of pentecostalism all the way back to Asuza Street).
Do you know if he ever got that 65 million dollar plane he was asking everyone to donate 300$ each for?
Thats how ive always understood it to be.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I believe God's Word. I believe that God doesn't lie. He said, um, er... I'll let Him say it:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 'till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I don't see that we have ALL come in the unity of The Faith as of yet. We will, since He said that we will. We will come into agreement with one another in the unity of The Faith, unto the knowledge of The Son of God, unto the full measure of the mature man: Christ Jesus, when we decide to lay down our differences and unite under His Banner of Love and follow sound doctrine and we will speak the Truth in love and grow up into Him in all things. I believe that we will do these things because He said that we will. Jesus said that we would do the works that He did and even GREATER. I believe Him. He's coming back for a glorious and victorious church. The last enemy that we will subdue on His behalf is Death. Until we do, there will be His five-fold ministry gifts and there will be the nine gifts of The Holy Spirit.
My former Pastor, Dr. Tim Sheets is an apostle. His brother is Dutch Sheets. He's started many very successful churches and gives God the glory, not himself or his ministry. I believe that the large number of God-anointed Pastors who call Tim an Apostle verify his apostleship, even though I knew he was an apostle the moment I laid eyes on him. I also know several others, some are in ministries and some are still studying. I'm a prophet, myself, although I don't have a ministry (per se) as yet. God is The One Who calls, anoints and appoints Prophets and Apostles, but He also does the same for Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers, in due season. I believe more harm is being done to Christ by so-called Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers whom God has never called, anointed or appointed but who appointed themselves.
I know it isn't my season yet. God has used me in several of the gifts of The Holy Spirit and done some pretty amazing things through my ministering and through prayer or laying on of hands. I've seen God use children laying hands on people and they receive their healing. I've seen way too much to deny God in ANY way, shape or form. He is more real to me than my own flesh.
Tim's ministry can be found here:
http://www.timsheets.org/
musterion
Well-known member
Good. So do I.
Agreed. Hasn't even come close to happening since Paul oversaw (as best he could) the churches he and his companions started in Asia Minor. Since then? Nope. Went downhill fast while Paul was awaiting death and grievous wolves pretty much sidelined Paul within 100 years of his death; his doctrines were falsely forced to align with Israel-oriented Kingdom doctrine, and the many false teachers (some are still revered household names in Christendom) twisted him to do it...just as Peter said they were doing. People like NAR still do it.
Read Ephesians 4, then 2 Timothy 3. Tell us which one Paul wrote last and (more importantly) which one far more closely predicted the history of Christendom.
According to which letter of Paul's, chronologically?
See above re: 2 Timothy 3.
Who is 'we'?
The only glory and victory any believer can claim is in Christ, not in ourselves. To say otherwise is empty boasting. But where's Paul say He's coming back for a "glorious and victorious church"?
Where's Paul say it's given to believers to subdue Death on behalf of Christ?
Where's Paul say that?
No he's not. No one associated with NAR is valid.
How did they know that? How do you know that? Please cite the biblical test to verify the gift of apostleship.
No you're not. Ask me how I know that.
What are the tests to verify these gifts you believe God is still giving? Chapter and verse, please.
What if no one since the apostolic era are so called? Have you ever seriously considered that, even just as a theoretical exercise? I doubt you have or would...that would require risking walking away from pentecostalism/charismaticism.
How would you know if it was? Where does Paul speak of a season for gifts? I think you made that up but chapter and verse, please.
How do you know it was a gift from God? Do you KNOW that or do you BELIEVE it?
How would you verify it? Satan can and does do lots of things people attribute to the work of God, and the world ain't seen nothing like what he's going to pull off before the end. How do you know what you think you've seen isn't from the father of lies?
You haven't offered any scriptural proof that what you say can be proved to be of God.
That's nice.
good question, it's like a line i draw in my head maybe ? i just don't believe in tongues and if anyone can really heal terminal illnesses etc., then it's still not the person but of God. i draw a line with no real source necessarily, except i just get that idea by reading the NT
musterion
Well-known member
God still heals when He chooses to do so...too many sound-in-the-faith believers have attested to this, and I myself experienced one gracious healing as a baby Christian. The difference is, there's no evidence that He still uses specially gifted healers to do it; that gift (along with the rest) died before Paul did. Anyone claiming He still does is lying, deceived, deluded or demonic.
Which brings us to this: James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord
Why not just send them to the churches healer instead if that was still happening?
musterion
Well-known member
I think a lot of churches do try it. But when the person is not instantly healed, you know who gets the blame.
yep, they didnt have enough faith.
musterion
Well-known member
Yep. But as we all know, one's faith is best expressed in cold hard cash...the more $$$ you cough up, the more GAAAAAWD! will do for you.
A preacher's Bentley ain't gonna buy itself, after all. Look it up, that's in Ecclesiastes somewhere.
oh, yes i meant to add that; seriously, that i believe in healing through prayer and through people God chooses to use, no doubt. like you i have seen, and heard testimony and i believe. i question those like Benny Hinn and others question me for doing so -
Aimiel
Well-known member
I find your answer irrelevant to the question at hand: "Have we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love?" Obviously not. Until then: we will have Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall no longer be needed.
I believe it is whom Jesus referred to: whomsoever believes in Jesus...
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
I've never heard of ANYONE (besides Jesus, Himself) walking on water. Have you?
Have you so soon forgotten The Great Commission?
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Jesus prays for us constantly:
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
He waits for the manifestation of The Sons of God who will one day come together in the unity of The Faith and put His enemies under His Feet.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
I've provided plenty, you've simply swallowed Cessationism whole. Seems you're gagging on it.
Dan Emanuel
Active member
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Yep. But as we all know, one's faith is best expressed in cold hard cash...the more $$$ you cough up, the more GAAAAAWD! will do for you.
A preacher's Bentley ain't gonna buy itself, after all. Look it up, that's in Ecclesiastes somewhere.
:idea: maybe he doesnt have enough faith, that the Bentley God wants him to have wont just be sitting there in his driveway when he gets up.