Anybody know much about Islam?

brewmama

brewmama

New member
Crucible said:
Cool story. This is where we simply pretend all the Christian sins of the past 1300 years don't exist :rolleyes:

The only person living in 'lalaland' are those such as yourself whose opinion is shaped entirely by biased people and extremists of an entire religion getting close to the size of Christianity.

You also fail to realize, pampered in your First World living and all the things you take for granted, that such things do not exist for a lot of Muslims. Sitting in your ivory tower with your judgements is one of the great sins among Christians since the first pope who decided to do just that.

I think you all need to get over yourselves and onto something called 'reality'.
Click to expand...

Wow, you are quite presumptuous about who I am, what I take for granted, who I listen to and learn from, and where I get information. Your post makes absolutely no rebuttal of what I said, and actually makes very little sense to boot. You totally ignore history and reality and can't even figure out why "such things do not exist for a lot of Muslims." Do you think finding some Muslims posing against ISIS actually makes a point about Islam, its history and founding, and its beliefs?

Come back when you can make a cogent argument.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Apple7 said:
No one named 'Muhammad' had anything to do with the Koran, according to the Koran, itself.

Stop propagating Islamic lies...
Click to expand...


??? It's pretty standard Islamic doctrine. Do you have a source? Why do so many use the name or are surnamed it? Ever heard the sha'hadah?
 
Crucible

Crucible

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Banned
brewmama said:
Wow, you are quite presumptuous about who I am, what I take for granted, who I listen to and learn from, and where I get information. Your post makes absolutely no rebuttal of what I said, and actually makes very little sense to boot. You totally ignore history and reality and can't even figure out why "such things do not exist for a lot of Muslims." Do you think finding some Muslims posing against ISIS actually makes a point about Islam, its history and founding, and its beliefs?

Come back when you can make a cogent argument.
Click to expand...

It's actually a perfect rebuttal, and perfectly proves you wrong. You're the one who chooses to ignore reality, having a very selective account on history and the complexities therein. You are just a fault finder who bides their time with other fault finders- you put a bunch of a certain kind of Christian in a room and they start yapping.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Let's step back for a minute and notice something about the religion in itself as it has come down to us without any interaction with other religions (even though there has been a lot). The Sunni v. Shiia division is there whether there are other religions to conflict with or not. As you may know, even without knowing what the doctrinal difference is here, there is a considerable amount of fighting over this difference. There was a period of this kind of conflict in N. Europe after the Reformation, but this conflict in Islam goes back to its 1st generation. It is irresolvable, as far as I can tell.
 
Apple7

Apple7

New member
Interplanner said:
??? It's pretty standard Islamic doctrine. Do you have a source? Why do so many use the name or are surnamed it? Ever heard the sha'hadah?
Click to expand...

Like most things that Christians (and Muslims!) are told by Islam, the truth of the matter, as written in their scripture set, is usually in diametric opposition.

So it is with Islam’s 'prophet Muhammad'.

Examining the classic Arabic definition 'Muhammad'; how frequently the term (by itself) is used; and how its root and all derivatives are utilized in the Koran.



محمد = 'muhammad'

'muhammad' definition:

Passive participle. A man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time; endowed with many praiseworthy qualities. Praised one.

It comes from the root 'hamida' (ha-miim-dal), which means he praised, eulogized, or commended him; spoke well of him; mentioned him with approbation; sometimes because of favor received. Also implies admiration; and it implies the magnifying, or honoring, of the object thereof; and lowliness, humility, or submissiveness, in the person who offers it. He declared the praises of God or he praised God much with good forms of praise.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 638 – 640
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 135 - 136
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 38
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 56


Occurrences of 'muhammad' in the Koran: 4
Locations: 3.144, 33.40, 47.2, 48.29

Occurrences of the root 'hamida' and its sixteen derivatives in the Koran: 68
Locations: 1.2, 2.30, 2.267, 3.144, 3.188, 4.131, 6.1, 6.45, 7.43, 9.112, 10.10, 11.73, 13.13, 14.1, 14.8, 14.39, 15.98, 16.75, 17.44, 17.52, 17.79, 17.111, 18.1, 20.130, 22.24, 22.64, 23.28, 25.58, 27.15, 27.59, 27.93, 28.70, 29.63, 30.18, 31.12, 31.25, 31.26, 32.15, 33.40, 34.1(2x), 34.6, 35.1, 35.15, 35.34, 37.182, 39.29, 39.74, 39.75(2x), 40.7, 40.55, 40.65, 41.42, 42.5, 42.28, 45.36, 47.2, 48.29, 50.39, 52.48, 57.24, 60.6, 61.6, 64.1, 64.6, 85.8, 110.3

Observe the Koranic usages…

• 1.2…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 2.30…praise to the lord
• 2.267…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 3.144…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 3.188…they are praised – painful torture
• 4.131…praise to “allah”
• 6.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 6.45…and the praise belonging to “allah”, lord
• 7.43…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 9.112…the praise to “allah”
• 10.10…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 11.73…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 13.13…on account of the praise, “allah”
• 14.1…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 14.8…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 14.39…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 15.98…lord’s praise
• 16.75…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 17.44…on account of his praise, “allah”, lord
• 17.52…on account of his praise, lord
• 17.79…lord praised
• 17.111…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 18.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 20.130…lord’s praise
• 22.24…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 22.64…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 23.28…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 25.58…on account of lords praise
• 27.15…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 27.59…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 27.93…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 28.70…the praise to “allah”
• 29.63…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 30.18…the praise, “allah”
• 31.12…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 31.25…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 31.26…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 32.15…lord’s praise
• 33.40…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 34.1…the praise belonging to “allah”(2x)
• 34.6…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 35.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 35.15…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 35.34…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 37.182…and the praise belonging to “allah”, lord
• 39.29…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.74…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.75…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.75…lord’s praise
• 40.7…lord’s praise
• 40.55…lord’s praise
• 40.65…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 41.42…praiseworthy, lord
• 42.5…lord’s praise
• 42.28…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 45.36…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 47.2…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 48.29…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 50.39…lord’s praise
• 52.48…lord’s praise
• 57.24…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 60.6…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 61.6…a MAN praised
• 64.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 64.6…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 85.8…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 110.3…lord’s praise



Summarizing this data, we have the following premises upon which to build our understanding of the Koranic “Muhammad”:

• The word itself is not a proper name
• The word is a participle…i.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb
• It applies to one man
• This man is praised
• He is the only man praised
• The root “hamida”, from which “Muhammad” is derived, refers to the praising of God
• Surveying all 68 Koranic occurrences of the root “hamida” and its sixteen derivatives, demonstrates the overwhelming usage in direct relation to Koranic deity (i.e. “allah”, lord)
• The only Koranic instance of a derivative not pertaining to deity is in 3.188 - in which people are tortured for accepting praises – thus, reserving “praise” for deity only
• This leaves us with 5 ayahs that “appear” to buck the trend
• All 5 of these ayahs refer to a man
• All 5 ayahs refer to a man that is praised


Thus…

This begs the question…

How could the 'praising' (that is reserved only for Koranic deity) be applied to a single man?

Answer: Because the Koranic 'Muhammad' (i.e. Praised One) is an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ.
 
Apple7

Apple7

New member
egyptianmuslim said:
Discussion with people who are living inside their mind is useless.
Click to expand...

According to the followers of Islam, their “prophet Muhammad” was responsible for the written text which comprises their Koran.

If this is the case, then where in all of the Koran is anything like the following written…


“I, Muhammad, wrote this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, dictated this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was inspired by an angel”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was divinely inspired”



Fact is, the Koran never once mentions who wrote the text, nor that there were any eyewitnesses, nor that it was divinely inspired.


Not once.

In fact, it is written almost entirely in the third-person.

What it does claim, however, is that it merely copied and translated the previous inspired Jewish and Christian scriptures into Arabic.
 
E

Eric h

Well-known member
journey said:
The Quran is not God's Word, nor should it be compared to God's Word. If you need an interpreter for the Quran, get one. Muslims deny the deity of Jesus Christ and much more. You act as if you're trying to sell Islam. I'm not buying.
Click to expand...

An atheist does not use God's words, yet we are still commanded to love them as we love ourselves. Why should it be any different with any other group of people; who we say do not use God's words?
 
Rusha

Rusha

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brewmama said:
Are you serious? All you have to do is listen to what experts in the Quran say, and have said. Or look at how they conquered the Islamic world. Many people think that the Golden Rule is universal in pretty much every religion. CS Lewis made a list of them in the back of one of his books, either Mere Christianity or Abolition of Man. Nothing from the Quran is there. Other sources list a quote from a Hadith, but nothing in the Quran.

Every Muslim may not be violent or wicked, but the religion itself is.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. Muslims who actually live according to their book ARE violent.
 
egyptianmuslim

egyptianmuslim

New member
Apple7 said:
According to the followers of Islam, their “prophet Muhammad” was responsible for the written text which comprises their Koran.

If this is the case, then where in all of the Koran is anything like the following written…


“I, Muhammad, wrote this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, dictated this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was inspired by an angel”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was divinely inspired”



Fact is, the Koran never once mentions who wrote the text, nor that there were any eyewitnesses, nor that it was divinely inspired.


Not once.

In fact, it is written almost entirely in the third-person.

What it does claim, however, is that it merely copied and translated the previous inspired Jewish and Christian scriptures into Arabic.
Click to expand...

It is clear that you don't know arabic or Quran.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Krsto said:
Christians believe in global domination. Muslims believe in global domination. May the ones with the most kids win :)

ps: I've got 5 kids so I'm doing my part. Howabout you?
Click to expand...



There is one small slice of Christianity (Dominionist) that may believe in global domination and who believe the millenium is contingent on that. But I think you are confusing global outreach with the Gospel with theocratic domination. I know of no such domination doctrine in the evangelical sector which is involved in missions. When the 1st Amendment was created it resolved a long-lasting problem on many fronts--the problem of those religions that seek theocracy.

Perhaps there are Muslims who leave out their eschatology altogether; I don't know. But I do know that most of it calls for the caliphation of the world so that the mahdi comes.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Apple7 said:
Like most things that Christians (and Muslims!) are told by Islam, the truth of the matter, as written in their scripture set, is usually in diametric opposition.

So it is with Islam’s 'prophet Muhammad'.

Examining the classic Arabic definition 'Muhammad'; how frequently the term (by itself) is used; and how its root and all derivatives are utilized in the Koran.



محمد = 'muhammad'

'muhammad' definition:

Passive participle. A man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time; endowed with many praiseworthy qualities. Praised one.

It comes from the root 'hamida' (ha-miim-dal), which means he praised, eulogized, or commended him; spoke well of him; mentioned him with approbation; sometimes because of favor received. Also implies admiration; and it implies the magnifying, or honoring, of the object thereof; and lowliness, humility, or submissiveness, in the person who offers it. He declared the praises of God or he praised God much with good forms of praise.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 638 – 640
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 135 - 136
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 38
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 56


Occurrences of 'muhammad' in the Koran: 4
Locations: 3.144, 33.40, 47.2, 48.29

Occurrences of the root 'hamida' and its sixteen derivatives in the Koran: 68
Locations: 1.2, 2.30, 2.267, 3.144, 3.188, 4.131, 6.1, 6.45, 7.43, 9.112, 10.10, 11.73, 13.13, 14.1, 14.8, 14.39, 15.98, 16.75, 17.44, 17.52, 17.79, 17.111, 18.1, 20.130, 22.24, 22.64, 23.28, 25.58, 27.15, 27.59, 27.93, 28.70, 29.63, 30.18, 31.12, 31.25, 31.26, 32.15, 33.40, 34.1(2x), 34.6, 35.1, 35.15, 35.34, 37.182, 39.29, 39.74, 39.75(2x), 40.7, 40.55, 40.65, 41.42, 42.5, 42.28, 45.36, 47.2, 48.29, 50.39, 52.48, 57.24, 60.6, 61.6, 64.1, 64.6, 85.8, 110.3

Observe the Koranic usages…

• 1.2…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 2.30…praise to the lord
• 2.267…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 3.144…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 3.188…they are praised – painful torture
• 4.131…praise to “allah”
• 6.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 6.45…and the praise belonging to “allah”, lord
• 7.43…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 9.112…the praise to “allah”
• 10.10…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 11.73…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 13.13…on account of the praise, “allah”
• 14.1…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 14.8…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 14.39…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 15.98…lord’s praise
• 16.75…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 17.44…on account of his praise, “allah”, lord
• 17.52…on account of his praise, lord
• 17.79…lord praised
• 17.111…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 18.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 20.130…lord’s praise
• 22.24…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 22.64…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 23.28…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 25.58…on account of lords praise
• 27.15…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 27.59…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 27.93…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 28.70…the praise to “allah”
• 29.63…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 30.18…the praise, “allah”
• 31.12…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 31.25…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 31.26…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 32.15…lord’s praise
• 33.40…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 34.1…the praise belonging to “allah”(2x)
• 34.6…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 35.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 35.15…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 35.34…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 37.182…and the praise belonging to “allah”, lord
• 39.29…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.74…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.75…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.75…lord’s praise
• 40.7…lord’s praise
• 40.55…lord’s praise
• 40.65…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 41.42…praiseworthy, lord
• 42.5…lord’s praise
• 42.28…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 45.36…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 47.2…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 48.29…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 50.39…lord’s praise
• 52.48…lord’s praise
• 57.24…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 60.6…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 61.6…a MAN praised
• 64.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 64.6…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 85.8…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 110.3…lord’s praise



Summarizing this data, we have the following premises upon which to build our understanding of the Koranic “Muhammad”:

• The word itself is not a proper name
• The word is a participle…i.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb
• It applies to one man
• This man is praised
• He is the only man praised
• The root “hamida”, from which “Muhammad” is derived, refers to the praising of God
• Surveying all 68 Koranic occurrences of the root “hamida” and its sixteen derivatives, demonstrates the overwhelming usage in direct relation to Koranic deity (i.e. “allah”, lord)
• The only Koranic instance of a derivative not pertaining to deity is in 3.188 - in which people are tortured for accepting praises – thus, reserving “praise” for deity only
• This leaves us with 5 ayahs that “appear” to buck the trend
• All 5 of these ayahs refer to a man
• All 5 ayahs refer to a man that is praised


Thus…

This begs the question…

How could the 'praising' (that is reserved only for Koranic deity) be applied to a single man?

Answer: Because the Koranic 'Muhammad' (i.e. Praised One) is an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...



From Apple7:
Like most things that Christians (and Muslims!) are told by Islam, the truth of the matter, as written in their scripture set, is usually in diametric opposition.

So when they say it is a peaceful religion...
 
Apple7

Apple7

New member
egyptianmuslim said:
Quran is full of answer but he said that he studied arabic Quran for 20 yrs
Click to expand...

The authors of your book of faith ALWAYS point the reader BACK to its source, the Holy Bible, for full details.

Remember this: The Holy Bible is required to correct and clarify the Koran in ALL manner of things.

Learn it.

Live it.
 
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