Many thanks, JudgeRightly, for your straightforward reply. It has considerably reduced my confusion.
Paul said, "the wages of sin is death," and, "all have sinned," therefore "as in Adam all die." Adam was told by God, regarding the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, "in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die." God wasn't lying. The day Adam ate the fruit, he did indeed die, but he lived for another 930 years. Likewise, when any of Adam's descendants sin, we die, because we have partaken of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the law has killed us, for "the law (the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) kills."
None of this is talking about physical death.
This is very clear and unorthodox. I had never heard of this interpretation, that Adam and Eve eating the fruit was not the cause of their physical death. It does seem that as long as they didn't eat the fruit, they would not physically die.
Adam was cast out of the garden because he broke God's law, he sinned. He was cut off from having a relationship with God.
He was, like the prodigal son was to his father, dead.
That's spiritual death.
Very interesting. I was thinking that when you were talking about spiritual death, you were only talking about the torments of hell.
Physical death, on the other hand, is the consequence of Adam's sin, which in being cut off from the Garden of Eden, was also cut off from the Tree of Life, which, as far as I can tell, was what would restore the human body from the effects of entropy on the human body. Those effects are the cause of most physical death, while the rest is due, directly or indirectly, due to spiritual death.
The effects of entropy? So physical death is not the direct result of sin. I think you mean that the physical process would not occur without sin: Prior to the sin, entropy does not take effect because everything ate from the Tree of Live, so when they were barred from Eden, and couldn't eat from the Tree, their sin brought entropy into the world and that brought mortality. So their sin brought about mortality.
Someone who deserves, ie who is worthy of, spiritual death, ie those who have sinned, does not NECESSARILY deserve to be physically killed. Big difference.
But did they deserved mortality? Clete said no. But if they did not deserve mortality, then why would God make it so? God is in complete control here: He could have punished them with spiritual death alone but not added mortality. In other words, it doesn't seem that God would have given them more punishment than they deserved. God is just.
I wrote: "Thus [JudgeRightly's] statement is that I'm in the same position as a person that deserves (as far as society can determine) and is about to be physically killed. And the only reason I'm not in the grave already is because of God's mercy, not because I deserve to live!"
I am NOT talking about physical death, despite me using a physical example of death.
Thanks for your discussion on your statement. My jaw hit the floor when I read that although in your statement you're using a phrase associated with a condemned man and one about the grave, you're actually talking about spiritual death
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The grave you are not already in is not talking about the physical grave, where your body is buried 6 feet underground.
No, the grave here is Hell.
The only reason you're not in Hell ("the grave") already is because God is merciful. You DON'T deserve to live (spiritually), because you have indeed broken God's laws.
So using the debt analogy in your statement, I owe a debt because I sinned. As long as I owe the debt, I'm spiritually dead. But I've been given a reprieve and don't have to pay the debt right away. Paying the debt involves physical death (and going to hell), but since I have a reprieve I'm not obligated right now, I don't deserve physical death yet. Of course, the other way to get out of debt is to accept Christ as Savior.
I must say, your answers are clear and I feel like I'm closer than ever to understanding what you are saying. Prior to this note, I was getting one understanding from your statement and other meanings from other comments. Now I see the consistency.
Also it would seem that no one gets a reprieve indefinitely, that is, we are mortal. So it would seem that the condition of mortality is a result of sin, and since we have sinned, we deserve to be mortal. This is the common understanding of the consequence of Adam and Eve's eating the fruit and our own sins. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned..." Even Clete said that Paul was "not merely speaking about physical death" here. That means physical death was included in the statement. Of course, Paul doesn't mean that everyone should physically die immediately, death spread to all in that all are mortal.
So at last maybe I understand the statement in Clete's list:
- We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
The word "death" refers to spiritual death, mortality and being thrown into hell after physical death. And the word "life" means physical and spiritual life and not being in hell, but we die spiritually when we sin.
I might just do that.
Thanks a lot,
Gary
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