Hi Everyone, my question is whether or not I am saved. I was raised as a Christian Fundamentalist and believed the doctrine without question as a small child. I learned all about Jesus, etc. I also learned about hell, that it was an eternal punishment to be avoided at any cost. All I needed to do was ask Jesus into my heart to be my Lord and Savior. The trouble was, I felt no different after doing that. In church, we would sing songs about how very much we loved Jesus and how much joy He brought us. But if I was honest with myself, I didn't really love Jesus that much, and I wasn't feeling much joy. I wasn't following the commandment that Jesus said was most important. I didn't even like going to church. Was I really saved? If I made a mistake and ended up in hell, there would be no mercy, no matter how much I begged and pleaded, and I would be stuck for all eternity. So I asked Jesus to come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior, over and over again. However, I never felt anything really positive from it. I didn't speak to anyone about this out of shame. When I was about 12, I read a tract that said that feelings were like a caboose on a train. Just like a train doesn't have to have a caboose, so a Christian didn't need to feel anything to be saved. I just continued to be tormented by the situation. (This was at a time when we were told to "witness" to others. I felt like other kids were, in general, happier, more confident than I was!) Eventually, perhaps about the time I turned 14, I began to think about it more independently, and decided that I didn't believe the Christianity I had been raised in. It was a tremendous relief and I have never recovered my faith! On the other hand, my church believed in "eternal security". Once you accepted Christ as your Savior, you are in, and bound for heaven, no matter what you believe or do from that time forward. I'm curious about what Christians here might say. Am I saved? Thanks for any thoughtful replies.
Am I saved from the Christian point of view?
- Thread starter garyflet
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Being with God for eternity is not a mechanical process. It's not a matter of this feeling or that ceremony, it's a matter of a relationship. One might even call it a kind of friendship. So that is kind of it, if you don't want to go to heaven you won't go even if God is going to say you are allowed in.
@Yorzhik and @JudgeRightly, thanks for reading my note and responding. So Yorzhik, I think you make a good point. If you feel you have a relationship, that God is looking down on you favorably, and you are beloved by Him, it would certainly feel great and you wouldn't be worried about hell, which would only be a place other people have to go. In my case, I certainly wanted to go to heaven, but I was more concentrated on avoiding hell. I felt like I had a gun pointed at my head, except, of course, eternal punishment is much much more horrible than merely being killed. But using the analogy, it's hard to be friends with Someone who has a gun pointed at your head. He's saying, "Have a relationship with Me or I'll kill you." Well, I certainly tried. At any rate, I guess your answer to my question would be that I was not saved, I was headed for hell, and my tormented reaction was quite appropriate under the circumstances. At least from the Christian point of view.
But your idea, Yorzhik, that the only people who are going to hell don't want to go to Heaven, does that mean that everyone will have a chance to choose after their death? Some Christians say you must choose while alive, after death is too late. That brings up the question of people who have never heard of Christ, but maybe that's too many topics for one thread. No doubt there are other threads that have taken up that topic.
JudgeRightly: If Clete had a closely related topic to this one on another thread, I'd be interested in knowing where it is.
Thanks, G
But your idea, Yorzhik, that the only people who are going to hell don't want to go to Heaven, does that mean that everyone will have a chance to choose after their death? Some Christians say you must choose while alive, after death is too late. That brings up the question of people who have never heard of Christ, but maybe that's too many topics for one thread. No doubt there are other threads that have taken up that topic.
JudgeRightly: If Clete had a closely related topic to this one on another thread, I'd be interested in knowing where it is.
Thanks, G
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If you're not sure you're saved, then NOW is the best time to get saved!
Ok.
Paul said:
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NKJV
If you've confessed the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believed that God has raised Him from the dead, then you're saved!
If you haven't done that, you should do it now. Place your trust in Him, for He is faithful and just to forgive.
There.
There's your problem, or at least, part of it.
You're still trying to keep the law, follow commandments, obey something, etc.
Thread 'You Cannot Live the Christian Life' https://theologyonline.com/threads/you-cannot-live-the-christian-life.46161/
Stop trying to resurrect the old man, and let Christ live through you.
If you've done what Paul said in Romans 10:9, then yes.
Part of the problem is that you've been taught that you can lose your salvation, and what's worse is that it's a true doctrine (Scripture does, in fact, teach that losing one's salvation is possible, but not for the Body of Christ!), just not applicable to you.
The truth is, if you have called upon God to save you, He's the one that saved you. Not you. Not because of something you did. Not because there's anything you CAN do to get Him to save you, but because HE SAID that He will save those who call upon Him.
Consider the phrase, "to cut a deal."
This phrase has its origins in ancient history, where two parties would agree to something, and they would cut an animal or multiple animals in half, and then walk through the two halves. It was called "cutting a covenant."
God and Abram (he wasn't yet called Abraham) "cut a covenant" between each other, but there was something odd about what happened when the deal was made. One of the parties was asleep when the deal was made! If you're asleep when someone makes a deal with you, you can't be expected to to anything to keep that deal, it's all on the party who made the deal with you.
In Genesis 15, God cuts a deal with Abraham, and tells him that He will make him the father of many nations, but then God puts Abraham to sleep, and walks through the animals that were cut in half, alone. God was basically telling Abram that there was nothing he needed to do for God to fulfill His promise to him. All Abram "needed to do" was accept it.
In the same way, God has told the world, "I have sent my Son as payment for your sins. The debt is paid, with His death I have reconciled the world to Myself. All you need to do is accept My free gift to you, and you will be saved!"
While we were dead in our sins (and a euphemism for dead is "asleep"), Christ died for us, He "cut a covenant" with the world, where the world doesn't have to do anything to keep their part of the deal. The world only has to accept that He has fulfilled His part of the deal, and the world will be saved.
Once was enough for God to seal you with His Spirit.
It's not a matter of feelings.
If you become friends with someone, do you feel good just by becoming their friend? Or do you have to work on your relationship and maintain it?
There is nothing to be ashamed of if you're friends with Jesus.
This is why it's important to rightly divide God's word. The "torment" comes from the teaching that one can lose his salvation, that if you're not good enough, you won't be saved.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you were not saved!
To paraphrase Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, Romans 10:
I, as an ambassador for Christ, as though God were pleading through me, I implore you on Christ's behalf, BE RECONCILED TO GOD! Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, and you SHALL BE SAVED, for with the heart one belieives unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation!
Supra.
Hi, G.
Welcome to the site.
Salvation will not be assured for anyone until the day of judgement, so your worries are unfounded.
A better question would have been..."Am I on the road to salvation?"
So, have you repented, permanently, of all sin?
A yes means you are on the right road.
Have you been water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
A yes means you are on the right road.
If your repentance was true, you will have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Have you?
A yes means you are on the right road.
I have a hundred other questions, but only you know if you love God with all your heart, strength, and might.
Only you know if you love your neighbor as you love yourself.
All the Law and prophets, and salvation, hinge on those two things.
False.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:13-14&version=NKJV
His worries are founded upon mistaught doctrine.
That's a terrible question to ask, because it assumes that the above passage is false.
Whatever that means.
No, it just means that one has been deceived by your doctrine.
Water baptism has nothing to do with whether one is saved or not, despite what the Baptists say.
No, it just means that one has been swayed by the Baptists.
That's what his entire post was about.
If his answer was yes, then this thread wouldn't exist.
Save them. They'll only confuse him.
Irrelevant.
Wrong topic.
You missed my point entirely. My feelings have nothing to do with what I said. The claim I made was that God is not so interested in the rules of the game as much as He is interested in one's attitude. Because it's not a game, it's more like a party. In fact, God said as much with the story of the great supper with the difference being that this is an age of grace whereas the story was set in an age of the law:
| 16 Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17 and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’ 18 But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ 20 Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21 So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the [f]maimed and the lame and the blind.’ 22 And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ 23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’ ” |
Does the story makes sense? At least it should give one pause to consider that perhaps God is not telling you to come to His supper with a gun to your head.
But again, it's just a claim this passage is similar to what the invitation to heaven is like. Is there more evidence this is the case? Does it line up with anything else? We might start with asking if God would make a world that didn't make sense. Or said another way, could God even make a world with minds that can make sense, but God is incapable of making sense?
I'll stop there even though there is more to say because this is already getting long.
I'm not understanding what you are saying in the last couple of sentences. Could you clarify?
I guess if that's how you see hell you are making sense. And certainly I'd say as someone at the party that those not at the party are having a worse time. But those people that refused the invitation didn't see it that way. They all had things they liked and were interested in like land, oxen and a wife. I wouldn't exactly call that torture the way you are painting that picture. And sure, parables like all analogies break down at some point, but at least one has to think about where that breakdown occurs.
In a way, yes. The angels that rebelled chose to leave heaven after they were there. I doubt it works the other way around though but I only believe that because I think most any reading of the bible says so and logically if God gives a second chance there is no reason to deny infinite chances.
Yeah, that's too many topics for one thread. I suppose the first answer I'd come to without getting into it too deeply is to say that parents, even though they are not perfect, in general, love their kids.
Let me know if I missed your point: I understood you to say that becoming saved (going to heaven in the afterlife) is not a matter of signing a contract or making an agreement, it was a matter of having a relationship with Jesus. But your statement that people who don't want to go to heaven won't go doesn't seem to apply because everyone wants to go to heaven, especially given the alternative! I desperately wanted to go to heaven as a child. Your dinner party story is nice but doesn't quite apply to the actual situation. Suppose all the guests that were too busy to come to the party were told that they were going to be burned to death in a pit if they didn't come. The story would change dramatically, they'd be fighting each other to get into the party! Then you'd have an analogy more pertinent to the situation. You don't seem to acknowledge that there are only two alternatives for the afterlife, heaven or hell.
There is a gun to my head as long as hell is the only alternative to heaven.
But the conservative Christian believes what the Bible says. He realizes that his own puny efforts to judge what makes sense should never be an impediment to accepting what God says.
I wrote: "I guess your answer to my question would be that I was not saved, I was headed for hell, and my tormented reaction was quite appropriate under the circumstances. At least from the Christian point of view." Since my understanding of what you are saying is that one is saved (goes to heaven) if one has a relationship with Jesus, otherwise you are thrown in hell, and I obviously didn't have a relationship with Jesus, then I was right to be afraid of going to hell. I was afraid of Jesus, but didn't have a friendly relationship.
Here you understand what I'm saying! I wouldn't call having land, oxen and a wife sounding like torture either. In Matthew he divides the whole world into "sheep" and "goats" with the goats going to "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25 31-46). There are many references to fire in describing hell: "Matthew 13: 40Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!"
Sounds like torture there!
Hi Judge Rightly,
Now your description of how to be saved sounds more like what I had learned as a child. It's very simple, you believe in Jesus and ask for his gift. No effort required, no ongoing relationship (@Yorzhik) , no road to salvation (@Hoping). Romans 10:9. And you get to go to Heaven, no matter what you do after that! No need to follow commandments yourself, you let Christ within you take over. My trouble was, Christ never took over.
Incidentally, I was never taught that I could lose my saved status, but it was possible not to be saved after you mouthed the words that you accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord if you weren't sincere or didn't quite believe in Jesus, etc. Also I didn't really feel guilt in order to make a sincere repentance, I was a good little kid. Mark 2:17, "When Jesus heard this, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.” Maybe I was too self-righteous to get saved?
But maybe the real problem is that I was motivated by fear of hell. On the other hand, Jesus says that fear is good. Matthew 10:28.
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Now your description of how to be saved sounds more like what I had learned as a child. It's very simple, you believe in Jesus and ask for his gift. No effort required, no ongoing relationship (@Yorzhik) , no road to salvation (@Hoping). Romans 10:9. And you get to go to Heaven, no matter what you do after that! No need to follow commandments yourself, you let Christ within you take over. My trouble was, Christ never took over.
Incidentally, I was never taught that I could lose my saved status, but it was possible not to be saved after you mouthed the words that you accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord if you weren't sincere or didn't quite believe in Jesus, etc. Also I didn't really feel guilt in order to make a sincere repentance, I was a good little kid. Mark 2:17, "When Jesus heard this, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.” Maybe I was too self-righteous to get saved?
But maybe the real problem is that I was motivated by fear of hell. On the other hand, Jesus says that fear is good. Matthew 10:28.
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
I'm afraid not. Only as a child was I able to believe that Jesus exists today as part of the Godhead. My question is, from the Christian point of view, am I saved today? Your answer seems to be yes, so far in your note.
Well, that's good! But later on in your note, you seem to change your mind, I'm not sure why:
Hoping,
Thanks for reading my emails and responding. I didn't understand your statement, "Salvation will not be assured for anyone until the day of judgement, so your worries are unfounded." The fact that everyone has this huge sword of Damocles hanging over them, means I should have had no worries about the huge sword hanging over me? I didn't want to go to hell, given the description: (Matthew 13:40-42). At any rate, your answer tells me that my fear of hell was well-founded and that I was right to feel tormented by fear as a child by the Christian teachings.
The worries I referred to was your "lack of knowing...", but I should have made it clear that nobody else knows either.
As the judgement of the last day is the determinant of heaven or hell, it behooves us to continue on in righteousness and love.
Thankfully, God gave us verses like 1 Cor 10:13 to help us have faith that we will eventually find out that our name is in the book of life.
1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
So, as God won't allow us to be tempted by anything we can't say "NO" to, and with His promise to always provide an escape, we should be able to hold on faithfully until the end of the war we fight.
The devil will never stop trying to get men to forsake God, in spite of the "words" they recite, and I am convinced he tries even harder to derail the faithful.
If salvation can be assured, why does the devil keep trying?
Because he knows it is not assured.
Instead of feeling tormented, feel freed by the death and resurrection of Christ, and of our God given ability to partake in His death and burial whereby we can be reborn of God's seed. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
His off-spring cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9)
That is assuming you want to live without sinning.
Those that are comfortable with sin have given up on obedience to the Giver of Life, and found doctrines and churches that accommodate sin.
There are lots of those out there.
Yes, we spent several weeks hashing out what was the bare minimum of what one needed to believe in order to be saved. It was a good exchange! I particularly like that thread because its one of the times where I've been convinced to change my position on an important point.
I started the thread with the following list of required beliefs....
- God exists.
- He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
- We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
- We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
- God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ and who is God Himself become flesh.
- Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
- Jesus rose from the dead.
- If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
- God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
- We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
- Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
- Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
- Jesus rose from the dead.
- If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Here's a link to the thread...
The Gospel Proper
Gary,
Okay, so based on your opening post, I would be strongly inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and proceed as though you ARE NOT saved. (i.e. I'd rather assume you aren't saved and be wrong than to assume you are saved and be wrong so whenever there's any doubt, the default is always to assume a person is unsaved.)
However, to be certain, let me just ask you to respond directly to the following...
Do you believe the following.....
- God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
- We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
- Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
- Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
- Jesus rose from the dead.
- If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
You can respond with a blanket yes or no, or you can respond to each point individually if you like. Give as little or as much of a detailed answer as you'd want. If any point is unclear to you, please just ask me and we'll get into it in more detail.
Clete
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The problem is the way you're framing the issue.
The problem is that you, Gary, have violated God's law (His law is just and good), and the just punishment for that is your eternal separation from Him, for He is just and righteous and will not allow injustice within His presense for the rest of eternity. It MUST, by the very definition of "justice," be dealt with.
So you, having violated God's law, are deserving of death. The "gun to your head," as it were, is correctly pointed at your head. But God is offering you a way out of being punished for your wrongdoing, not because you've done anything to deserve it, but because God loves you and wants to have a relationshihp with you, but as I said above, He cannot tolerate injustice. In order for Him to even offer you the option be forgiven, the demands of justice must be met.
Paul tells us that death is wages. It is the the promised payment for sin. Those who sin justly deserve death. Thus, the payment for your sins in order to balance the ledger, so to speak, is death. The only thing that will balance the ledger is death. In other words, you're a dead man walking! The only reason you're not in the grave already is because God is merciful. You could try to pay your debt to Him, but the death of you means your eternal separation from God. No other human can pay for your death, because they have their own sin to pay for. So the only solution is for God, who is sinless, and therefore not deserving of death, innocent, to pay for your sins. And He did so, by going to the cross 2000 years ago. His death was enough to satisfy the demands of justice for EVERY human who ever lived, was living, is living, and ever will live!
So, You're a dead man walking, and the Creator of the universe is offering you salvation from death and separation from Him, so what do you do? You could say that he's holding a gun to your head, and telling you to love Him (which wouldn't be love, by the way), or you could recognize that the one holding the gun is yourself, and you've already pulled the trigger, and He's trying to give you a second chance at life, and accept His free gift!
All you have to do is place your trust in Him, and He'll take care of the rest!
No. If God allowed people to decide after they died, then people would hold off on deciding for the rest of eternity, and the demands of justice would never be met.
Death is the cut-off point, both figuratively and literally.
The Bible uses "cut off" often to mean "put to death."
And they're correct.
Read Romans 2. Keep in mind that he's not talking about Jews, those under the law, nor is He talking about the body of Christ.
He posted it above.
In a nutshell, yes.
The relationship is something you have to work on AFTER you are saved. Sure, you could starve yourself of your relationship with Him, but it won't be pleasant, and you'll easily fall into despair. But your salvation isn't dependent on your relationship with Him, except insofar as you have placed your trust in Him.
Salvation isn't a road. It's a fork in the road. It's a choice. You can choose the way that leads to Hell, but you'll alway have the option, at least until you die, to cross the bridge God rebuilt for you.
If you think that's what I said, then you've completely missed the point.
Likely because you never let Him. You didn't seek Him.
But I don't know the condition of your heart when you were that age, and so, I'm going to assume that you weren't actually saved, and preach to you as if you are lost.
Supra.
Indeed, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Supra.
Because similarly to what Clete said:
It's better to assume you aren't saved and have you profess your faith again and be mildly annoyed at us come Judgement Day, than assume you are, and later watch as you are cast into the lake of fire.
Hi JudgeRightly and Clete, the TruthSmacker,
Thanks for reading and responding to my emails.
I wrote: "Was I really saved (given the description in the first note)?"
I wrote: "Romans 10:19. And you get to go to Heaven, no matter what you do after that! No need to follow commandments yourself, you let Christ within you take over.
Now there's actually two statements that I made there, I think you're referring to the statement, "you get to go to Heaven, no matter what you do after that". Since you wrote that I completely missed the point, you seem to be saying that after I was saved, I could revert and lose the salvation.
But I got the impression that you are saying that if I am saved, I can't lose that salvation when you wrote:
Now Clete gives additional criteria for what you have to believe and do to be saved. For Clete, Romans 10:9 is describes only one of the criteria for to get saved:
I have a question about the meaning of the word, "just" as in God is just. In your Christian point of view, is it impossible for God to not be just? As you say in the fourth sentence, "Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin". Thus a Creator God could make sentient beings who have the capacity to suffer, and the Creator God just makes them suffer, not in reaction to anything the sentient beings have done, He does it for no reason at all. Is such a Creator God just in your view?
If your answer is yes, such a Creator God is just, then the word "just" is superfluous in the first sentence. God cannot help but be just. In that case, you are using the word "just" in a misleading way, since most people would say that a powerful being causing less powerful beings to suffer for no reason would be unjust. On the other hand, if the answer is no, what makes a Creator God just? Well one of the hallmarks of a sense of justice, the very meaning of the word "just", is that the punishment for a crime must fit the crime. This is confirmed by the Hebrew Scriptures, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." So how is it just to torture people in the lake of fire or furnaces for all eternity for whatever they did in a finite lifetime on earth? It would seem completely unbalanced and you're using the word "just" as having a special meaning not explained.
However you may not believe in eternal punishment, I notice you haven't mentioned hell, only death. Perhaps you think that those who haven't had their sins forgiven are just quickly killed (again) and don't have to spend an eternity being tortured in Hell. But Hell is definitely in the Bible with reason in several verses to believe it is an eternal punishment. Also the Greek word Hades, which in Greek mythology is the place where the dead dwell, not where they are quickly killed. And the word "Hades" is used by Jesus in the Gospels, obviously as the alternative to Heaven. Of course, your list does not mention the Bible, but I assume it is based on a belief in the Bible, not based on the authority of members of this forum. Thus the foundation of the list is not mentioned in the list itself. Is it possible to be saved and not believe in the Bible? Maybe you should say that you have to believe in the Bible, or at least those sections of the Bible that support the following list. You should say that the reader may freely ignore those sections of the Bible that would lead you not to believe that this list is true.
The idea that everyone, when they sin, is rebelling against God is a bit hard to swallow. A little baby doesn't even have the concept of God! That a sin makes one deserving of death is also hard to swallow. A hungry child stealing an apple is hardly thinking about God at all, nor is he deserving of Death. Frankly, I don't believe that any Christian believes they are deserving of death, much less eternal torture for what they have done, not in the real world. In church, they will go along with the doctrine, give lip-service to it, but if they are attacked in a real way, they will be to busy running or fighting back to even think about how they might deserve death. If someone says to them outside of church, "You deserve to die", they will not believe it. In other words, it is an intellectual doctrine to say while in church, not accepted at the core of anyone's being in relation to the real world.
Now I did pick up from my church that I, and everyone else, was a worthless scumbag getting a reprieve from death and hell only by the Grace of God. I was worthy of being despised, on the other hand, I was to love everyone else. I thought that perhaps I had no positive feelings about being saved because I didn't take seriously the idea that I was a worthless scumbag, so I needed to constantly put myself down, in order to feel something when I attempted to take God's gift and be saved. This did not work, and only seemed to bring me trouble in relating to other people in a healthy way.
At any rate, as a child, I could certainly give intellectual assent to every item on the list, and perform the last sentence with great urgency. However, I felt no joy at being a Christian, and continued to doubt that I was really saved. But writing about this has greatly clarified for me, why I had so much trouble. I tried to make the second sentence not just something to give intellectual assent to, but something that was real for me. Big mistake!
Thanks,
Gary
Thanks for reading and responding to my emails.
I wrote: "Was I really saved (given the description in the first note)?"
I wrote: "Romans 10:19. And you get to go to Heaven, no matter what you do after that! No need to follow commandments yourself, you let Christ within you take over.
Now there's actually two statements that I made there, I think you're referring to the statement, "you get to go to Heaven, no matter what you do after that". Since you wrote that I completely missed the point, you seem to be saying that after I was saved, I could revert and lose the salvation.
But I got the impression that you are saying that if I am saved, I can't lose that salvation when you wrote:
So I'm not sure what you're saying because you are possibly contradicting yourself. Given that I'm saved at one point, is it possible for me to be unsaved later in life?
Now Clete gives additional criteria for what you have to believe and do to be saved. For Clete, Romans 10:9 is describes only one of the criteria for to get saved:
Note that there are really two questions I'm asking here: (1)Was I saved, given the description in the first note, from the Christian point of view. (2) If the answer is yes, am I still saved now that I'm a non-believer, from the Christian point of view?
I have a question about the meaning of the word, "just" as in God is just. In your Christian point of view, is it impossible for God to not be just? As you say in the fourth sentence, "Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin". Thus a Creator God could make sentient beings who have the capacity to suffer, and the Creator God just makes them suffer, not in reaction to anything the sentient beings have done, He does it for no reason at all. Is such a Creator God just in your view?
If your answer is yes, such a Creator God is just, then the word "just" is superfluous in the first sentence. God cannot help but be just. In that case, you are using the word "just" in a misleading way, since most people would say that a powerful being causing less powerful beings to suffer for no reason would be unjust. On the other hand, if the answer is no, what makes a Creator God just? Well one of the hallmarks of a sense of justice, the very meaning of the word "just", is that the punishment for a crime must fit the crime. This is confirmed by the Hebrew Scriptures, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." So how is it just to torture people in the lake of fire or furnaces for all eternity for whatever they did in a finite lifetime on earth? It would seem completely unbalanced and you're using the word "just" as having a special meaning not explained.
However you may not believe in eternal punishment, I notice you haven't mentioned hell, only death. Perhaps you think that those who haven't had their sins forgiven are just quickly killed (again) and don't have to spend an eternity being tortured in Hell. But Hell is definitely in the Bible with reason in several verses to believe it is an eternal punishment. Also the Greek word Hades, which in Greek mythology is the place where the dead dwell, not where they are quickly killed. And the word "Hades" is used by Jesus in the Gospels, obviously as the alternative to Heaven. Of course, your list does not mention the Bible, but I assume it is based on a belief in the Bible, not based on the authority of members of this forum. Thus the foundation of the list is not mentioned in the list itself. Is it possible to be saved and not believe in the Bible? Maybe you should say that you have to believe in the Bible, or at least those sections of the Bible that support the following list. You should say that the reader may freely ignore those sections of the Bible that would lead you not to believe that this list is true.
The idea that everyone, when they sin, is rebelling against God is a bit hard to swallow. A little baby doesn't even have the concept of God! That a sin makes one deserving of death is also hard to swallow. A hungry child stealing an apple is hardly thinking about God at all, nor is he deserving of Death. Frankly, I don't believe that any Christian believes they are deserving of death, much less eternal torture for what they have done, not in the real world. In church, they will go along with the doctrine, give lip-service to it, but if they are attacked in a real way, they will be to busy running or fighting back to even think about how they might deserve death. If someone says to them outside of church, "You deserve to die", they will not believe it. In other words, it is an intellectual doctrine to say while in church, not accepted at the core of anyone's being in relation to the real world.
Now I did pick up from my church that I, and everyone else, was a worthless scumbag getting a reprieve from death and hell only by the Grace of God. I was worthy of being despised, on the other hand, I was to love everyone else. I thought that perhaps I had no positive feelings about being saved because I didn't take seriously the idea that I was a worthless scumbag, so I needed to constantly put myself down, in order to feel something when I attempted to take God's gift and be saved. This did not work, and only seemed to bring me trouble in relating to other people in a healthy way.
At any rate, as a child, I could certainly give intellectual assent to every item on the list, and perform the last sentence with great urgency. However, I felt no joy at being a Christian, and continued to doubt that I was really saved. But writing about this has greatly clarified for me, why I had so much trouble. I tried to make the second sentence not just something to give intellectual assent to, but something that was real for me. Big mistake!
Thanks,
Gary
The point I was trying to make was that it's not a certain certification. It isn't a particular button one pushes. It isn't a particular test one must pass. It is a matter of having a good attitude about God himself. To know how that would be you can look at your relationships with your family and friends and anyone else you have a good relationship with. Or another way to look at it would be that if you were invited to someone else's place will the host be happy that you came?
Well that requires a little more context about what heaven is. People who learn what God requires to go to heaven would simply rather not be there. To have a relationship with someone, especially God, you have to learn about God and God's nature. That requires time and effort to begin with and then those requirements disturb their sensibilities. It also requires humility. It's not something human nature is things of. And it also means that one will be in the same place where Christians are, and for a lot of people hanging around Christians is pretty miserable. So, no, most people don't want to go to heaven.
I think the story was an analogy made directly to describe at least some aspects of heaven.
Certainly pertinent to the way you see it, no doubt. But that brings back the question: can a God that is incapable of making sense create Minds that can make sense?
No. I have implied after death one is either with God or not. It's the same thing.
As JR says, in effect, you are the one that put the gun to your head. But that's not what I'm pointing out. I'm pointing out 2 things. The first is that you can't be friends with someone by pushing certain buttons, you actually have to like them. The second is that hell is not eternal punishment from your perspective.
You didn't answer the question. You just employed a debate tactic. It's ok to just answer the question honestly because it's not a "gotcha" question.
That seems to be the case. I'd say I can back up the 2 points I'm trying to make and it's an attempt to help, not an attempt to win a debate.
No doubt that's what the bible says. But it also says some will get few strokes and some many. In other words people will pay for their own sins and when they done paying that's it.
Torture and Punishment are the same. The difference is that torture is unjustified pain and punishment is Justified pain. Would you say there is no justification for any punishment in your life?
It should be pointed out that those points are not my mere opinion. Each point is substanciated biblically in the thread I linked too. Are there any of them that you reject?
Saved from what?
That's a whopping big "If"!
Most, if not all, children do not need saved.
Romans 3:20b ...by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 5:13b ...sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Deuteronomy 1:39 ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
This topic is above your pay grade. I mean, is there any false doctrine that you didn't pick up as a child?
In what perverted church did you ever learn that God "just makes them suffer, not in reaction to anything the sentient beings have done, He does it for no reason at all." That's Calvinist claptrap and blasphemy! It's also the opposite of justice and THE reason you can know it's false doctrine.
No. "Superfluous" is the wrong word. In such a case the word "justice" would be meaningless.
Says who, you?
Who gives a damn what "most people would say"? I certainly don't. The word "just" has a very clear and specific meaning which is well understood and not in dispute. It is not a matter of opinion or popular vote.
Right action (i.e. in thought, word and deed).
True!
Amen!
This is, however, a slightly different subject. Exodus 21 is all about criminal justice and not justice in general but still, the point is well taken! Justice has to do with getting what one actually deserves.
Dante's Inferno is not in the bible, Gary.
Just as importantly, you're far more evil than you give yourself credit for, as are we all.
You're well out of your own depth here, Gary. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Your understanding of both Christianity and of God Himself is so skewed by false doctrine and fairy tales that it's difficult to even respond to you. Suffice it to say that, regardless of whatever you've been taught, the bible doesn't teach anything other than whatever it is that you get from God, you yourself will agree that it is just because it will be.
I believe in Hell, just not the pop culture version of it. We know very little about what Hell is going to be except that it will be a permanent separation from God.
No question at all that it is an eternal punishment but you're talking about the conception of Hell that is presented in a piece of 14th century fiction.
Okay, now you're just sort of rambling.
There is no need to assume anything. There is a whole thread that I clearly linked to that you could have referenced. Further, the fact that the thread resides in the Exclusively Christian Forum gives away the "secret", I'd say.
There are no such sections of the bible.
No one here cares about your personal opinions, Gary, least of all me. Swallow it or not, that's the truth.
Besides, what else would it be other than rebellion against God? Is there someone other than God who gets to decide what sin is and what it isn't? God either exists or He doesn't. If He exists, you are subject to Him. He set out the rules very clearly because that's His prerogative as your Creator. If you break the rules then you are rebelling against the One who put the rules in place.
In fact, it is no surprise that you'd gravitate toward this error because it is basically you minimizing your own sin. If sin isn't rebellion against God, it isn't nearly as big a deal as it would be otherwise.
This is false.
Luke 1:41-44
You are so in over your head here. You're false conclusions are based on false premises, the chief one so far being the notion that sinning isn't a rebellion against God.
Certainly not!
The child should be forced to pay restitution, nothing more. Why on Earth would you think God would put anyone to death for stealing?
You're so confused that I am honestly having a difficult time following you from one sentence to the next!
The punishment for stealing is spelled out very clearly in the book of Exodus. Nowhere is it mentioned that anyone gets tortured at all, much less for an eternity.
What sort of stupid church did you attend where could have gotten so completely confused?
You believe every fairy tale ever told about Hell. You probably even think that Satan runs the place! You conflate criminal justice with what is going to happen on judgment day and you seem to think that this sort of nonsense is actually taught in the bible!
Where does it say that you're to love everyone else?
Did your pastor teach that you should love Hitler or Jeffery Dahmer? If so, he was an idiot who probably told you that you had to forgive everyone of any and all wrong that they've done to you whether they've repented of it or not. And there's no doubt at all that you were taught and fully believed that we aren't to judge people either, right?
Pathetic stupidity.
It didn't work because it wasn't true. You were a child! There's not a chance your were a "pathetic scumbag" of any sort.
Well, its the fact that you were a child that is precisely the issue. If you throw one of those do-nut shaped life preservers to a person sitting on your living room couch and he, "with urgency" thanked you so much for saving his life, is he grateful or was he tricked by a lie you told him?
Well, all I can tell you is that what you've rejected is not biblical Christianity. What it sounds to me like is that you've rejected a secularized version of Calvinism, which, even without the secularization, is nearly pure heresy and blasphemy. Calvinists do not even believe that justice applies to God!
I'd bet that you've likely never even heard what biblical Christianity is, although I suspect that this post will begin to give you some inkling of it. One thing you can start with is the fact that there is no such thing as an irrational truth, something that no Calvinists would ever affirm in this context.
Read the opening post of the following thread...
Is God Moral
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Note that "Calvinism" is a term that usually means a specific set of beliefs for most people, but among almost everyone Calvinism features the 'settled view'. And the settled view would also account for every position you mention in your post.
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