All Things Second Amendment

Dan Emanuel

Active member
If you take a terrorist organization as a group of people who both commit atrocities against innocent people, and then make demands, promising that they'll stop the atrocities when their demands are met, and you separate that cluster of people between those who commit the atrocities, and those who make the demands, then you've got the dispute we're dealing with here in the US wrt gun control and gun laws and the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms.

"Negotiating with terrorists works."

It doesn't.
What? :liberals:
Meanwhile, if we model our laws after established, superior examples that abound in other Western Industrial Democracies, we can share something else with them: a nation made safer from gun violence.

Or we can keep doing what we're doing and adding to the body count.
Oh!

I get it now.

I think.

This user isn't the party committing atrocity's against innocent people---Town Heretic is in the group making the demand's (if I am following you).

Their operating in tandem, even though there not coordinating or conspiring.

The party making the demand's just sit's and wait's for the other unaffiliated party to commit atrocity's against innocent people.

Then, thats when they swoop in and make they're demand's.

OK.

I get it.

I didn't see it til now, with Town Heretic doing exactly what you said, as a case in point here.

The demand is that "we model our law's after other Western Industrial Democracy's."

And if we don't comply, then we will not be "safer from gun violence," and the unaffiliated terrorist's who commit atrocity's against innocent people, will be "adding to the body count," which is obviously a very menacing and threatening thing to say, and of the exact same character and quality, as a single terrorist organization doing both the atrocity's and the demand's together.

Town Heretic is in the cluster of people making the demands.

The terrorism will stop if we negotiate with terrorist's, is they're message.

That must be what you mean, I can see it now.

I was scratching my head when I first read that. :chuckle:

(1.2)​
 

Stripe

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Stripe actually reported my asking [A]nna if she wanted to blow/leave for a bit.
Yeah, it's a breach of the rules. And it's a bit rich you yukking it up over a legitimate report of an actual rule when you — as just one example among almost every Woodshed report — whine when Koban replies to someone who replied to you.

If we model our laws after established, superior examples that abound in other Western Industrial Democracies, we can share something else with them: a nation made safer from gun violence.
When you ban cars, traffic fatalities fall.

Or we can keep doing what we're doing and adding to the body count.
Logical fallacy alert! This one is called a false dichotomy. It's when you pretend that there are only two options. Here, the implication is that anyone who disagrees with Town wants to keep seeing mass killings. Nope. We have proposed changes to the way things are done that would have an actual, evidence-backed effect, unlike banning a certain range of weapons, which would do next to nothing to stop the killing (and limit our ability to respond).
 

JudgeRightly

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Meanwhile, if we model our laws after established, superior examples that abound in other Western Industrial Democracies, we can share something else with them: a nation made safer from gun violence.

Why not model our laws after the Lawgiver's laws, instead of trying to model them after fallible man's laws? Would that not be better for society? I'm not talking about the religious laws, such as don't eat certain foods, don't wear mixed fabrics, etc. I'm talking about do not steal, do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness.

Or we can keep doing what we're doing and adding to the body count.

We're currently, as a nation, trying to do what you said above. It's what's leading to your "alternative." And as Stripe said, it's a false dichotomy.

There's more options than what you have presented.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
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Why not model our laws after the Lawgiver's laws
I think most great moral truths work their way into the laws of nations that regard them. I also would say that history answers your question and is why we didn't do that more directly. The worst thing you can do to religion is give it power to deny and punish. It draws the corrupt to use it as a means to power.

Instead, we have a secular nation where we are free to worship and believe and think as we will, with regard only for the rights of others as a consideration.

Would that not be better for society?
Not if you weren't a Christian and not even if you were, using history as a gauge of human nature, given how narrow that can become. Just so, we had Catholic and Protestant setting Europe ablaze over exegesis.

I'm not talking about the religious laws, such as don't eat certain foods, don't wear mixed fabrics, etc. I'm talking about do not steal, do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness.
Great moral truths, such as those, have mostly found a place in our laws, supra.

We're currently, as a nation, trying to do what you said above.
I think many are, but they're running into a smaller but vocal opposition and an industry with enormous power and dedication.

It's what's leading to your "alternative." And as Stripe said, it's a false dichotomy.
I haven't presented a false dichotomy and you haven't set out why you think I have in any particular. I'd be happy to consider it if you want to proffer particulars.

There's more options than what you have presented.
It's important to know what you consider meaningful options and whether or not when you use the term you're speaking to options with no possibility of being accomplished. By way of example, you might feel that changing human nature is an option. And technically you'd be right, but it's unrealistic and contrary to a reasoned examination of man. It's an open ended hope with no guideposts for timeframes or measurables. You might feel fundamentally tearing down the current government and instituting a different one could or would be an option, but it's one that's so improbable as to constitute an exercise in argument more than it would a realistic attempt to alter the current outcome.

To an extent, many of the alternatives are a bit like suggesting that because a boulder has fallen in the way of a tunnel we should dig a completely new tunnel or a bridge over the mountain instead of simply removing the boulder.
 

Stripe

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I haven't presented a false dichotomy.

Right here:

If we model our laws after established, superior examples that abound in other Western Industrial Democracies, we can share something else with them: a nation made safer from gun violence.

Or we can keep doing what we're doing and adding to the body count.

See that "or"? Yeah, that means something.

A or B. By logical necessity, not (A and B) and not (not(A or B). So, yeah. Definitely a dichotomy. All we have to do to show that the accusation of your fallacy is fair is present a viable third option, which has been done over and over.

Heck, you're not even saying that a third option is not possible by arguing with JR over what the law should be.

And you haven't set out why you think I have.

Right here:

Logical fallacy alert! This one is called a false dichotomy. It's when you pretend that there are only two options. Here, the implication is that anyone who disagrees with Town wants to keep seeing mass killings. Nope. We have proposed changes to the way things are done that would have an actual, evidence-backed effect, unlike banning a certain range of weapons, which would do next to nothing to stop the killing (and limit our ability to respond).

So that's twice now. Remember your favourite accusation that people make declarations?

I'd be happy to consider it if you want to proffer particulars.
:darwinsm:

It's important to know what you consider meaningful options and whether or not when you use the term you're speaking to options with no possibility of being accomplished.

See? There are third options. The honest thing to do would be to retract your implied assault on people who do not buy the regulations you advocate.
 

Stripe

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I think most great moral truths work their way into the laws of nations that regard them.

Sounds delusional. There is no recent example I can think of where a nation has gone from Godlessness to Godly with respect to a major piece of legislation.

I also would say that history answers your question and is why we didn't do that more directly. The worst thing you can do to religion is give it power to deny and punish. It draws the corrupt to use it as a means to power.

Notice how JR did not advocate installing a religion, but actually the law, which you know not.

Another logical fallacy then. This one the straw man fallacy.

We have a secular nation where we are free to worship and believe and think as we will, with regard only for the rights of others as a consideration.

And you want to erode that liberty further.

Not if you weren't a Christian and not even if you were, using history as a gauge of human nature, given how narrow that can become. Just so, we had Catholic and Protestant setting Europe ablaze over exegesis.

Notice how JR did not advocate installing a religion, but the law. The law says: Do not murder. It says do not steal. It seems that you want those left out. :idunno:

Great moral truths, such as those, have mostly found a place in our laws, supra.

:AMR:

Those great moral truths are being rapidly eroded and you don't want them installed as you pretend we are talking about religion.

I think many are, but they're running into a smaller but vocal opposition and an industry with enormous power and dedication.
Alphabet, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter.

Oh, you meant the NRA?

:rotfl:

It's important to know what you consider meaningful options and whether or not when you use the term you're speaking to options with no possibility of being accomplished. By way of example, you might feel that changing human nature is an option. And technically you'd be right, but it's unrealistic and contrary to a reasoned examination of man. It's an open ended hope with no guideposts for timeframes or measurables. You might feel fundamentally tearing down the current government and instituting a different one could or would be an option, but it's one that's so improbable as to constitute an exercise in argument more than it would a realistic attempt to alter the current outcome. To an extent, many of the alternatives are a bit like suggesting that because a boulder has fallen in the way of a tunnel we should dig a completely new tunnel or a bridge over the mountain instead of simply removing the boulder.

You've made up your mind, it seems.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
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I wrote, "If we model our laws after established, superior examples that abound in other Western Industrial Democracies, we can share something else with them: a nation made safer from gun violence.

Or we can keep doing what we're doing and adding to the body count."

Right here:
It's not a false dichotomy. If we don't change our approach we will, prima facie, continue with the body count. The Western Industrial Democracies (WID) noted "examples" cover a number of differing approaches/responses to the problem that have demonstrated success over generations. So in themselves, the WID constitute multiple alternatives to doing the same thing as we have done up to this point.

You don't have any real excuse for not understanding that because I've noted there are stronger and weaker models among those choices, citing Switzerland as an example of the weakest and least effective among them, while being dramatically better even so than our status quo.

Heck, you're not even saying that a third option is not possible by arguing with JF over what the law should be.
That alone should have given you reason to recognize your error. Well, if you'd been as invested in argument as you were apparently desperate for any semblance of a rhetorical "win."

Sounds delusional. There is no recent example I can think of where a nation has gone from Godlessness to Godly with respect to a major piece of legislation.
Given that doesn't actually respond to the quote you might want to consider a colon after "delusional."

Notice how JR did not advocate installing a religion, but actually the law, which you know not.
I write along as I go and his rhetoric wasn't clear on the point until a bit further on. At that point I left what had preceded it as a means of expounding on those larger changes, though installing a law only works within the system that allows for it. Some laws will necessarily find themselves altering the nature of that system.

And you want to erode that liberty further.
It's a lovely declaration, but, as I've said before, "If that attempt at argument was a sandwich I'd still be looking for the bread to spread nothing on."

Notice how JR did not advocate installing a religion, but the law.
Sure, supra. And I noted that most great moral truths are reflected in law by people who respect them. They're in our laws, the laws you lack sufficient familiarity with to proffer much substantive debate, being a stranger to my land in terms of both its people and the laws we live under, the legal precedents we follow, etc.

The law says: Do not murder. It says do not steal. It seems that you want those left out.
Many an imaginary garment was rent down that "seem." Or, if that confuses, no.

Those great moral truths are being rapidly eroded and you don't want them installed as you pretend we are talking about religion.
That doesn't really follow anything I've said on the subject, so at least you're being consistent.

Re: vocal opposition and an industry with enormous power and dedication
Alphabet, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter.

Oh, you meant the NRA?
No, the NRA is a mouthpiece, potent as they are, for the thing that escapes you, which is hilarious: the gun manufacturing and sales industries. So if it helps you to sleep I should have pluralized industry.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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It's not a false dichotomy.

Of course it was.

If we don't change our approach we will, prima facie, continue with the body count.

Making out that you said this instead of what you actually did is rather dishonest. Why not just retract the implied accusation and be done with it. :idunno:

Or, heck, just ignore me and move on. :idunno:

They're in our laws, the laws you lack sufficient familiarity with to proffer much substantive debate, being a stranger to my land in terms of both its people and the laws we live under, the legal precedents we follow, etc.

:yawn:

The gun manufacturing and sales industries.

Which make a pittance compared with the left-wing shills in charge of the companies I listed.

Were you going to include them in your conspiracy theory?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
There is no recent example I can think of where a nation has gone from Godlessness to Godly with respect to a major piece of legislation


On the contrary, my nation (and many others) has legislatively embraced evil in the past several decades, in the name of "diversity", "inclusiveness", "human rights" etc - all smokescreens by the left to facilitate the dissolution of Christian morality in our society

For example, legislatively approved murder, theft, adultery, lying ( [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION]'s list :thumb: )

An embrace and celebration of perversion and a rejection of God


Anybody who argues otherwise is either deluded, dishonest or retarded
 
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Town Heretic

Out of Order
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Of course it was.
Making out that you said this instead of what you actually did is rather dishonest. Why not just retract the implied accusation and be done with it.
Actually I quoted myself exactly. Here it is again with emphasis on the parts that make you look goofier than usual.

"If we model our laws after established, superior examples that abound in other Western Industrial Democracies, we can share something else with them: a nation made safer from gun violence."

Examples, meaning more than one. Democracies, meaning more than one.

Look, I get you didn't really think it through, well, mostly. I mean even with that bias you realized it when you noted me talking to JR about other options, but you were so intent on seeing something that wasn't there you had to pretend I didn't see what I was literally speaking to...which is pretty darn sad, even for you Stripe.
 
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