ECT A Two-Fold Foundation

[SaulToPaul 2]

Wrong-you are not paying attention to details of the book- a book of details. To wit:


The Ephesians passage,you cite, referencing "apostles and the prophets," is not referencing the prophets and the 12 apostles, OT through "pre-Paul"-your "argument." It is referencing the apostles and prophets, "Paul, and going forward.=not "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" in Revelation 21:14 KJV.



Vs.

Note, the chronological order, "pre Paul"=OT up until Paul:



Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

First, prophets; then, apostles-the 12.


2 Peter 3:2 KJV

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Prophets first, then the 12 apostles.

Vs.

From Paul, on...

1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV


And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


Chronological order-book of details....

"first apostles"

"secondarily prophets"

Memorize it. Details. Survey Acts...Paul, first, apostle...Barnabus, an apostle.....then prophets....


Confirmed-order-apostles, then prophets:

Ephesians 2:20 KJV

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Ephesians 3:5 KJV

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Indeed, Danoh, many "anti-dispy/MAD/mystery" members of the boc use Ephesians 3:5 KJV, to assert, "See!!!!The 12 knew about the mystery of which Paul spoke-Ephesians 3:5 KJV-revealed unto his holy apostles........the 12!!!!!!"


No, the "his holy apostles and prophets" is not referencing OT prophets and the 12 apostles(notice the chron. order), but the apostles and prophets from Paul, going forward(again, notice chronological order).


Accept it.

But then, again-you are always right.

Post Of the Year...quite possibly.

 

[john w]

Post Of the Year...quite possibly.

Thanks, Sam. I would agree, but I am far too humble to make that assertion.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Thanks, Sam. I would agree, but I am far too humble to make that assertion.

:chuckle:

 

[Nihilo]

In 1st Corinthians 9:5 (KJV), is Paul separating out Cephas from "other apostles," or is Peter included in that group?

 

[Danoh]

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

He is talking about The Household of God (Israel of God and the Body of Christ).

He is talking about the Gentiles no longer being foreigners and strangers from the Israel of God ("the saints" there), but fellow citizens with them within the Household of God, but as members of the Lord's OTHER Agency: the Body of Christ.

The foundation of BOTH of which is Jesus Christ.

THIS is why the NIV gets that wrong.

In their failure to note that Paul went from talking about the Israel of God (Covenants of Promise) the Gentiles were not a part of, to their being fellow citizens with them within the Household of God (TWO-Food Purpose) BUT being that said formerly lost Gentiles were NOW members of God's OTHER Agency: the Body of Christ.

ONE Household, TWO Agencies within that Household.

And ONE Foundation.

CHRIST is the foundation BOTH "are built on," for He is in fact, said Household's CHIEF cornerstone.

Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

One Agency...

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Other Agency...

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Both are "built" ON Him.

And that is just a few "witnesses" on this.

But all of which is this here...

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

The Mystery of God:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The Mystery of the Father:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The Mystery of Christ:

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

The foundation of BOTH Agencies is Christ...

3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Right Divider]

In 1st Corinthians 9:5 (KJV), is Paul separating out Cephas from "other apostles," or is Peter included in that group?

It completely depends on the CONTEXT of what is being discussed in that verse.

1Cor 9:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? (9:2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. (9:3) Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, (9:4) Have we not power to eat and to drink? (9:5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
​

Paul is defending HIS apostleship from false accusations that he was NOT an apostle at all (typically because he was not with the LORD during His earthly ministry to Israel).

The 12 and Paul are all apostles, just not the EXACT same kind.

 

[DAN P]

Is future Israel depicted as set aside in Eph. 1:10; 3:15; etc.?

You amatuer, you

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

Hi and did Paul write 2 Cor 3:13-16 , YES or NO ?

Will you explain 2 Cor 3:13-16 or are you going to RUN SCARED AGAIN ??

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and did Paul write 2 Cor 3:13-16 , YES or NO ?

Will you explain 2 Cor 3:13-16 or are you going to RUN SCARED AGAIN ??

dan p

I don't you owe you ANY proof of what I hold to or not.

No one does.

Stick to what the thread is about: God's TWO-Food Purpose as related in Ephesians.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[DAN P]

I don't you owe you ANY proof of what I hold to or not.

No one does.

Stick to what the thread is about.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Hi and you had and answer you would ANSWER but you don't and as they say , DRIVE FOR SHOW or PUTT FOR DOUGH !!

Just stick to what you know Mr CALLOW !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and you had and answer you would ANSWER but you don't and as they say , DRIVE FOR SHOW or PUTT FOR DOUGH !!

Just stick to what you know Mr CALLOW !!

dan p

No one owes you an explanation of one thing or another, and besides, you are married to your Greek based errors; there is no placating you.

Either stick to the subject of this thread - God's Two-Fold Purpose - not you - or move on.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[john w]

No one owes you an explanation of one thing or another, and besides, you are married to your Greek based errors; there is no placating you.

Either stick to the subject of this thread - God's Two-Fold Purpose - not you - or move on.

Rom. 5:6-8.

You sound a mite orney, Danoh. You should go relax, at the corner room at "The Y" this weekend, or go home, have you a little nap, then go over to your "Thelma Lou's" and watch a little TV... Yeah, I believe that's what you should do. . Go home, have a nap, then over to Thelma Lou's for TV... Yep, that's the plan, go home, little nap...


For the love of TOL, do it! Do it! JUST DO IT!

 

[Danoh]

You sound a mite orney, Danoh. You should go relax, at the corner room at "The Y" this weekend, or go home, have you a little nap, then go over to your "Thelma Lou's" and watch a little TV... Yeah, I believe that's what you should do. . Go home, have a nap, then over to Thelma Lou's for TV... Yep, that's the plan, go home, little nap...


For the love of TOL, do it! Do it! JUST DO IT!

Not at all, he's one of my favorite posters.

And he's a MAD, after all - my kind of people :thumb:

Doesn't mean I'll kow tow to his nonsense.

But yeah, an ice cold bottle-luh-sasperila right about now would feel better'n watchin two hogs in a garbage can...

 

[john w]

Not at all, he's one of my favorite posters.

And he's a MAD, after all - my kind of people :thumb:

Doesn't mean I'll kow tow to his nonsense.

But yeah, an ice cold bottle-luh-sasperila right about now would feel better'n watchin two hogs in a garbage can...

You ought to head on over to your local "Clip Joint," set a spell, play some checkers, and have a bottle of pop, either a "Hucklelberry Smash," or "Nectarine Crush." Yep, that's the plan.....

 

[DAN P]

No one owes you an explanation of one thing or another, and besides, you are married to your Greek based errors; there is no placating you.

Either stick to the subject of this thread - God's Two-Fold Purpose - not you - or move on.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Hi and what Greek errors have you FOUND ??


Why not compare 1 Peter 2:6 WITH Isa 28:16 , are they the SAME FOUNDATION ?

Yes it is the same , and you are blending what said , THE MYSTERY with 1 Peter 2 and with Isa 28:16 are nthe SAME !!

No wonder dispensationalism is a MESS !!

And you believe the MYSTERY is found in the OT ?? God have mercy !!

 

[Danoh]

Hi and what Greek errors have you FOUND ??


Why not compare 1 Peter 2:6 WITH Isa 28:16 , are they the SAME FOUNDATION ?

Yes it is the same , and you are blending what said , THE MYSTERY with 1 Peter 2 and with Isa 28:16 are nthe SAME !!

No wonder dispensationalism is a MESS !!

And you believe the MYSTERY is found in the OT ?? God have mercy !!

Actually, that would be some of the other MADs on here who assert that Romans 16:25 and 1 Cor. 2:7, and so on, were hidden in the OT.

I do not hold to their view on that.

Get your "hybrids" straight :chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[DAN P]

Actually, that would be some of the other MADs on here who assert that Romans 16:25 and 1 Cor. 2:7, and so on, were hidden in the OT.

I do not hold to their view on that.

Get your "hybrids" straight :chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

Hi and so far you are the only , that I have seen , that blend OT with the Mystery !!

And where have you seen , where I have mis-used the Greek text ??

Since you do not use Greek verbs , how do you know if I am right ot not ??

L O L here !!

Some one from Grace BIBLR COLLEGE wrote a book on the very verses that you have used in Eph 3:20 and he and you are wrong !!

dan p

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You ought to head on over to your local "Clip Joint," set a spell, play some checkers, and have a bottle of pop, either a "Hucklelberry Smash," or "Nectarine Crush." Yep, that's the plan.....

We had two chairs in my hometown...no waiting.

 

[God's Truth]

Been meaning to address this, for sometime...

The actual sense of this passage here...

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Which is a part of all this here...

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

And in all that, the Gentiles are said to have gone from having once been "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" verse 12...

To verse 13's "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

Missing within the reading of many of all that there, is the awareness of a change in things between verse 12 and 13 there, that the Apostle Paul does not go into there, but that an Unawareness of, results in a very different sense of all that there, in Ephesians 2.

An unawareness of which also results in a mis-fire on the actual sense of this here...

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians is Advanced Mystery Truth.

It is a sequel to Romans, and as it's sequel, both builds on, as well also often reiterates various aspects of that Foundational Truth laid out throughout Romans; which is why Paul asserts in Romans chapters 1 and 15 and 16, is he wrote Romans to begin with.

In Romans 1:18-3:20, he lays out how first the Gentiles and then the majority of the Nation Israel BOTH ended up on the wrong side of God's perspective about them.

At the beginning of Romans chapter 3, he briefly touches not only on fact of the existence in Paul's day, of Israel's Believing Remnant, despite the majority of their Nation's fall, but also, on the fact of God's faithfulness to His one day bringing about their Promise.

Paul then goes into much more of all this, in Romans 9-11.

How that despite the fall of the majority of their nation, God is by no means through with what He has purposed to do with, in, and through a Believing Remnant of their Nation, as "a nation" one day.

Which brings us full circle to a fuller sense of what the following passage is actually referring to...

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Verse 12, of Ephesians 2 is referring to how things were for the Gentiles when they were on the outside looking in.

But it also refers to how things had been for Israel before their Nation was "concluded... under sin" with the Gentiles...

Which is why we read in..

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

At this point, the Nation Israel has been concluded as "WERE nigh."

Which is this here...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

And which Paul also touches on, in this here...

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So, there is all that, and this - which is speaking of a TWO-Fold Purpose - one aspect of concerns the Earth, and another of which concerns things in Heaven...

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Thus, the sense of this here...

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

...is that the foundation upon which those Apostles and Prophets before Paul had based things concerning Israel on - Jesus Christ - is the same chief corner stone upon which the Mystery preached by the Apostle Paul was also based on - on Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

One aspect concerning Christ is in relation to Him as He...

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Another aspect concerns Him "according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," Romans 16:25.

Same foundation for both; different plan, for each.

Acts 17:11,12; Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

The Jews were the people who knew their blood relations were special because the Savior would come through their bloodline, they had that extra motivation, for sure.

Romans 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.


The Gentiles were enemies of God because they would not come into the covenant, they would not atone for their sins. They were full of sins and they were unclean because they did not do all the purification/ceremonial works.

A Jew was not to associate with such a person because the Gentiles did not obey God and clean themselves.

You miss the truth and it is strange how that happens with you. You seems to be going along fine and then you miss huge points and end up where you were taught to end up by false teachers.

Paul explains how the UNCLEAN, UNCIRCUMCISED Gentiles who did not atone for their sins were included, brought near to God, all by the fact that they HAD FAITH that Jesus' blood cleans them. That means Jesus did not make them get circumcised in the flesh and do all those other purification works before he would save them. Jesus saved them while they were unclean Gentiles in their uncircumcised flesh.

 

[Nihilo]

It completely depends on the CONTEXT of what is being discussed in that verse.

1Cor 9:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? (9:2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. (9:3) Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, (9:4) Have we not power to eat and to drink? (9:5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
​

Paul is defending HIS apostleship from false accusations that he was NOT an apostle at all (typically because he was not with the LORD during His earthly ministry to Israel).

The 12 and Paul are all apostles, just not the EXACT same kind.

OK, so is Paul including himself with Peter as an Apostle in 1st Corinthians 9:5 (KJV), based on the context?

 

[Right Divider]

OK, so is Paul including himself with Peter as an Apostle in 1st Corinthians 9:5 (KJV), based on the context?

He is defending the fact that he is an apostle. Not all apostles are identical or have identical missions. Jesus was an apostle (Heb 3:1).

Quit trying to force the Bible to agree with your favorite doctrines and start believing what it actually says.