A Challenge or Stripe - Can you defend one aspect of Creation Science of your choice?

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CabinetMaker

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Nope. In fact, I made every effort to explain exactly where the conversation is at:

C: Why not evolution?
S: Genesis is history.
C: Genesis is history, but not accurate.
S: Is the Joseph account accurate?




Is it accurate history? Was Joseph a real person? Are the stories about him accurate?

Nope.

Possibly you are just incapable of normal comprehension.

That I believe Genesis to be an accurate account history does not remove it from the body of evidence.

The bolded sentence is a statement of fact, not a statement of opinion. You are only rationally justified in responding to that statement by either agreeing with it or denying it. Calling it a belief is just plain stupid.

Here, let me reword it so it doesn’t have the dreaded “I believe” so near the start (heck, the actual first word — that — should have clued you in that this is a compound statement).

Genesis should not be removed from the body of evidence just because someone says they believe it to be true.

Irrelevant. I presented a fact. If you disagree, tell me why I’m wrong. Quit pretending I presented an opinion. I didn’t. It is a fact that Genesis should not be removed from the body of evidence when someone says they believe it to be true.

I expect you to agree with the fact I presented. I expect you to believe that an idea should remain in the body of evidence, even if someone claims it to be true.

You’re just emoting. You should be able to read the sentence I challenged your statement with and retract or reword your line saying: “As the source you cited is scripture, and given that you take Genesis to be literally true, you have made a statement of faith.”

I have not made a statement of faith. I have made a claim that Genesis is an account of history. You need to deal with what I actually say, not with what you wish I had said. :up:

We’ll get there.

Was Joseph a real person? Are the stories about him accurate?

:darwinsm:

Your statement was: “Where you err is that you state there is single account of ancient history.” It looks like you’ve retracted that statement right here. I underlined your two contradictory statements about what I believe.

This is what is known as not respecting your opponent. I have ideas. You disagree with my ideas, but you argue with things you make up, presenting me as having said things I would never say. You need to go have a good, long lie down and think your approach through very carefully, because it gets real boring real quick having to wade through the multiple layers of your misrepresentations.

Or perhaps you simply are not reading my posts?

Oh, and by the way, I did not say I completely reject all but one. You have to respond to the words I commit to paper, not invent things to reply to.

Can you at least agree that Genesis is not my opinion? :AMR:

Lying is bad for you.

One of the reasons you were on ignore for so long was because of your fallacy-filled challenge to the definition that you launched after finding out that interbreeding proves two organisms are of the same kind. That thread has been deleted, but you certainly know what the definition of kind is.

However, this is not relevant to the conversation over the nature of Genesis.

Was Joseph a real person?
Is this what you consider rational discourse? You failed to address anything that I asked you. Based on the fact that you have refused to address my question regarding Cain and Able and that you have refused to provide a definition for biblical kinds. You stated that I am a liar as you have already provide such a definition. It is interesting to note that you are implying that your definition was provided in a thread that has been deleted. Interesting assertion.

In any case, you have failed to comply with the rules set forth in the OP. If you wish to continue, please address the questions I have asked. If you do not wish to do so, I hope you will gracefully accept the fact that you lost.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
=CabinetMaker;4667119
In any case, you have failed to comply with the rules set forth in the OP. If you wish to continue, please address the questions I have asked. If you do not wish to do so, I hope you will gracefully accept the fact that you lost.
:rotfl:
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Is this what you consider rational discourse? You failed to address anything that I asked you. Based on the fact that you have refused to address my question regarding Cain and Able and that you have refused to provide a definition for biblical kinds. You stated that I am a liar as you have already provide such a definition. It is interesting to note that you are implying that your definition was provided in a thread that has been deleted. Interesting assertion.

In any case, you have failed to comply with the rules set forth in the OP. If you wish to continue, please address the questions I have asked. If you do not wish to do so, I hope you will gracefully accept the fact that you lost.
Is the account of Joseph a historical one?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Is the account of Joseph a historical one?
You stated that of all the creation stories we know about, Genesis was the best. The first question I asked you, that you have not answered, is how you determined that Genesis is the best. Start there.
 

Stripe

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You stated that of all the creation stories we know about, Genesis was the best. The first question I asked you, that you have not answered, is how you determined that Genesis is the best.
We notice you omitted your falsehood that started us down this rabbit trail. :rolleyes: Genesis is not the only account. And had you not asserted that there needs to be more than one account of ancient history for Genesis to be considered evidence, none of this would have happened.

To answer your question: The other accounts are fragmentary and unreliable. There are thousands of copies of Genesis that corroborate each other with plenty of details that could be checked against archeological finds.

Start there.
The conversation has started:


C: Why not evolution?
S: Genesis is history.
C: Genesis is history, but not accurate.
S: Is the Joseph account accurate?



The bolded part is where it's at. Your move. :up:
 

6days

New member
A lack of respect will be indicated by one of us calling the other a name, such as...
[*]evolutionist ...
You are offended by the term 'evolutionist'???
No disrespect is meant, but what other term should be used for people who believe in evolution?
You can call me a Biblical creationist....I will not be offended.

BTW..... You might like this short video from Richard Dawkins who says that theistic evolutionists are deluded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAbpfn9QgGA
 

6days

New member
Cabinetmaker said:
Who did Cain and Able marry?
That's simply a rabbit trail... So, I hope its ok that I answer...That way you and Stripe can keep debating the topic. The historical accuracy of God's Word.

Who did Cain and Abel marry? Well... Abel was murdered, and there is no mention of him getting married.
So who did Cain marry? It really is very simple if we just believe God's Word.

*We know Eve is first woman ever, and she is the mother of all. Gen. 3:20

*Eve had at least 7 children Gen. 5:3,4 (But quite likely 20 or more based on health and longevity of first humans)

*Without other humans around, there would have been brother sister marriages.

*Brother to sister marriage was not immoral, and would not have caused genetic problems. (No genetic burden with first humans)

*Brother to sister marriage was not sinful. Mosaic law later declared it a sin. Lev. 18:10

And... It is interesting how science often pushes atheists and evolutionists so close to the truth on matters such as this. Who would claim that all humans came from a common ancestor 5000 years ago? The claim comes from Steve Jones, a geneticist at the University of London. Jones is ANYTHING BUT a creationist. He is a ardent (and arrogant) evolutionist.
From the article:
"To get to the universal ancestors (when everyone was the forefather of everybody alive today, or of nobody) we need go back only 5,000 years. Had you entered any village on Earth, the first person you met would, if he or she had heirs, trace their descent straight to you and your partner."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/steve-jones/3685402/View-from-the-lab-Incest.html
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
We notice you omitted your falsehood that started us down this rabbit trail. :rolleyes: Genesis is not the only account. And had you not asserted that there needs to be more than one account of ancient history for Genesis to be considered evidence, none of this would have happened.

To answer your question: The other accounts are fragmentary and unreliable. There are thousands of copies of Genesis that corroborate each other with plenty of details that could be checked against archeological finds.


The conversation has started:


C: Why not evolution?
S: Genesis is history.
C: Genesis is history, but not accurate.
S: Is the Joseph account accurate?



The bolded part is where it's at. Your move. :up:
Sorry, but we are not ready to proceed, you have not yet finished with the first question.

Okay, you determined that the number of copies of Genesis make it reliable. You state that the other accounts are fragmentary and unreliable. Does this mean that they are not historical? If we have only a fragment of one of these stories, does that mean that it is not an accurate historical account? You have stated above that having only one document does not mean that it is not historical, does that hold true for these othe creation accounts?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
You are offended by the term 'evolutionist'???
No disrespect is meant, but what other term should be used for people who believe in evolution?
You can call me a Biblical creationist....I will not be offended.

BTW..... You might like this short video from Richard Dawkins who says that theistic evolutionists are deluded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAbpfn9QgGA
Depends on how the term is offered. The way the term is most commonly used here is derogatory as the implication is that anybody who believes in evolution cannot know Jesus as Lord and Savior. That is not true. And understanding of science in no way precludes faith in God.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
You are offended by the term 'evolutionist'???
No disrespect is meant, but what other term should be used for people who believe in evolution?
You can call me a Biblical creationist....I will not be offended.

BTW..... You might like this short video from Richard Dawkins who says that theistic evolutionists are deluded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAbpfn9QgGA

That's simply a rabbit trail... So, I hope its ok that I answer...That way you and Stripe can keep debating the topic. The historical accuracy of God's Word.

Who did Cain and Abel marry? Well... Abel was murdered, and there is no mention of him getting married.
So who did Cain marry? It really is very simple if we just believe God's Word.

*We know Eve is first woman ever, and she is the mother of all. Gen. 3:20

*Eve had at least 7 children Gen. 5:3,4 (But quite likely 20 or more based on health and longevity of first humans)

*Without other humans around, there would have been brother sister marriages.

*Brother to sister marriage was not immoral, and would not have caused genetic problems. (No genetic burden with first humans)

*Brother to sister marriage was not sinful. Mosaic law later declared it a sin. Lev. 18:10

And... It is interesting how science often pushes atheists and evolutionists so close to the truth on matters such as this. Who would claim that all humans came from a common ancestor 5000 years ago? The claim comes from Steve Jones, a geneticist at the University of London. Jones is ANYTHING BUT a creationist. He is a ardent (and arrogant) evolutionist.
From the article:
"To get to the universal ancestors (when everyone was the forefather of everybody alive today, or of nobody) we need go back only 5,000 years. Had you entered any village on Earth, the first person you met would, if he or she had heirs, trace their descent straight to you and your partner."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/steve-jones/3685402/View-from-the-lab-Incest.html
None of this is recorded in scripture. You are drawing conclusions based on assumptions that you cannot support from scripture. You have formed on opinion, an article of faith, that you hold to be true. There is nothing wrong with that, faith is a good thing. The problem comes when people start offering their opinions, their faith, as established fact.
 

6days

New member
None of this is recorded in scripture.
Can you explain? You disagree that Eve is the mother of all? You disagree that Adam and Eve had at least seven kids? You disagree that brother sister marriage was forbade in Levitical law?
It is very clear in scripture. It only becomes muddled to those who want to insert death, pain, suffering and thorns before sin entered the world through one man.
 

6days

New member
Depends on how the term is offered. The way the term is most commonly used here is derogatory as the implication is that anybody who believes in evolution cannot know Jesus as Lord and Savior.
I have never heard anyone say such a thing. I would suggest most people accept Jesus as Lord and Savior do believe in evolution initially.
And understanding of science in no way precludes faith in God.
Certainly not! And, a understanding of science in no way precludes accepting Genesis as historically accurate and the foundation of the Gospel.
 

exminister

Well-known member
Genesis is not a history of science, it is a history of God's early interactions with men. If you would like to treat it as a history of science then you need to present your evidence to support the science you claim Genesis represents.

This is an unsupported assertion on your part. By what standard do you measure ALL (that means Genesis too) creation accounts to determine which is the best. If Genesis is to be your standard, how did you determine that is the correct standard?

Generally more than one written account. Ancient history may have only one written account which leads to some problems in analyzing them. If one account is all we have then archaeologists, and others, will look for things to determine if what is written in the account is accurate. This can lead to problem with certain historical accounts as things such as gardens, hanging and other wise, towers, arcs, of at least two types, have not been found to date. As such, the book from which these accounts are taken, from an academic standpoint, cannot be considered a reliable source of early history.

You have presented no evidence is support of your position. This is another unsupported assertion.

See above.



The words "I believe" make this a statement of faith, not of fact. See above for the standard of care you must meat to prove that Genesis is an accurate history of the ancient world.



My reasons for seeing Genesis as an account of God's first interactions with men and not as an accurate history include:
The fossil record occurs in specific layers. Each layer contains increasingly more complex life forms. The fossil record starts with simple forms such as bivalve animals in the lowest levels. As we get nearer to the surface we see more complexity in the form of legs, eyes, feathers, etc. We see distinct separation between dinosaur bones and human bones that indicate they did not live at the same time.

There is no evidence of a single, global flood. Noah's Arc, as dimensioned in Genesis is of insufficient size to carry two to seven of each type of animal found on Earth. Noah's Arc, nor any piece of it, has never been found.

There are no ruins of the Tower of Babble.

We have a single person account of ancient history. We have ancient ruins that coincide with this period of history but none of those ruins support the accounts found in Genesis. This means that Genesis cannot be considered an accurate, detailed and complete history of that time. Archaeologists continue to search for ancient cities such as Babylon and satellite technology has begun to aid in the search and recently located a place where five rivers did come together. Research continues.


Cabinet,
This went off course here. Lots of topics including Noah's Ark. That is no Creation Science.

Creation science is about the Age of the earth being 6 literally days.
dating methods
Great expanse of the universe and speed of light
Oldest living things
Possibly how could 8 people 4K years ago produce 7 billion people.

Arguing over Bible accuracy is much broader than Creation science

2 cents
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Sorry, but we are not ready to proceed, you have not yet finished with the first question.

Okay, you determined that the number of copies of Genesis make it reliable. You state that the other accounts are fragmentary and unreliable. Does this mean that they are not historical? If we have only a fragment of one of these stories, does that mean that it is not an accurate historical account? You have stated above that having only one document does not mean that it is not historical, does that hold true for these othe creation accounts?

Rabbit trails.
 

6days

New member
exminister said:
Creation science is about the Age of the earth being 6 literally days.
I think you meant 6,000 years?
exminister said:
dating methods
C14...short period comets...radiometric dating...soft tissue in fossils...young appearance of Pluto...helium in rocks...bent / not cracked rock layers...magnetic field decay..etc. (There are many, many more dating methods{ including some I used when I was young and handsome}) But, the only 'dating' method that truely matters is God's Word.

exminister said:
Great expanse of the universe and speed of light
Yes..expanse of universe 90+ billion light years (light horizon). Speed of light about 300,000/sec. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Ps.19:2

exminister said:
Oldest living things
Obviously less than 4500 year.
exminister said:
Possibly how could 8 people 4K years ago produce 7 billion people.
Quite simple. SIMPLE, CONSERVATIVE ARITHMETIC REVEALS CLEAR MATHEMATICAL LOGIC FOR A YOUNG AGE OF THE EARTH. https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-against-evolution/billions-of-people-in-thousands-of-years/

exminister said:
Arguing over Bible accuracy is much broader than Creation science
Christ used scripture as His source of absolute truth.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Can you explain? You disagree that Eve is the mother of all? You disagree that Adam and Eve had at least seven kids? You disagree that brother sister marriage was forbade in Levitical law?
It is very clear in scripture. It only becomes muddled to those who want to insert death, pain, suffering and thorns before sin entered the world through one man.
Most of what you wrote is not in scripture. You used logic to fill in the missing information. You arrived at a series of conclusions that may or may not be an accurate representation of history.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Cabinet,
This went off course here. Lots of topics including Noah's Ark. That is no Creation Science.

Creation science is about the Age of the earth being 6 literally days.
dating methods
Great expanse of the universe and speed of light
Oldest living things
Possibly how could 8 people 4K years ago produce 7 billion people.

Arguing over Bible accuracy is much broader than Creation science

2 cents


Stripe is classifying those events as history, not creation science.
 
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