İ'm a 18 year old know-it-all Muslim. Ask me anything!
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But it is usually for political reasons. Shia vs Sunni was also highly political.
On the other hands Christians fought over theology, very deep fundamental concepts in their belief. This is unacceptable (not that fighting over politics is not)
That's politics. That's not about who is God, His attributes and essence, way to salvation, prophethood etc. It's about how to apply God's law.
What do you define as "sin". Doing evil without knowing what God thinks of it (or what you're inner innate God-given conscience) thinks of it - is not sinning.
Christianity doesn't even have a social and political domain. The Church thought that they had no time, that Jesus would return very soon. Or that the Spirit of Truth would appear soon from amongst them. Islam, on the other hand, does have a social and political domain. We usually fight over how God's law should be applied - not on issues of Godhead, salvation. There is very little to no significant differences.
Likewise
No hypocrisy
:nono
Did you read what I was saying? Islam is universal. The Qu'ran is the only popular book on earth that claims to be the word of God, and is mostly in the first person with God. The Qur'an is the only scripture that provides a theory of Prophethood that transcends all nations and tribes.
You missed the point. Does the Bible have verses like these? :
"And for every nation there is a messenger." (10:47)
"And there is not a people but a warner has gone among them." (35:24)
The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message? For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).
(16:35-36)
To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your god is One God: submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves
(22:34)
To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord: for thou art assuredly on the Right Way.
(22:67)
We gave him (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: AND ISMA’IL and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way. This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. These were THE MEN to whom We gave THE BOOK, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.
(6:84-89)
And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
(5:48)
O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me.
(2:40)
Politics can hijack religion
It does. Original sin, wages of sin is death, blood sacrifice...what type of god is this?
Very good
I see, so all muslims believe the infidel must be beheaded, thanks.
I mean killing the infidel and those who depart from islam is required.
And that isnt unacceptable to you?
Lon
Well-known member
There are a lot of reasons why it may or may not be originally thought to be in John, but all Christian scholars left it in our Bibles. Even if you don't 'like' this particular passage, Jesus said it more than just this once, with others caught in sin, as well. He was accused of eating with sinners, instead of condemning them. As such, this story fits well, whether you personally think it should be in our bibles or not. I guess for the record, you should simply realize we ALL have it, despite the complaint. Matthew 5,6 and 18 are clear we are to love:
And forgive:
You agreed all have sinned, yes? Love and forgiveness should be an important doctrine.
Consider this, if we think that all infidels should be killed - then to whom are we supposed to preach Islam to? The stories of all the Prophets including the Last One, all are filled with lessons of patience and wisdom in preaching.
+ http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/at...r-apostasy-is-un-islamic-and-not-in-the-quran
Lon
Well-known member
You know when you disobey your parents? Sin. If you lie? Sin. Cheat? Sin. Steal? Sin. We know when/if we break natural laws, even if we don't get caught. Sin is defined as that which we do against our own bodies, against others, and against God.
You are kidding yourself, or else you love and agree with ISIS? No? It isn't just political, again, you are fooling yourself.
Er, no. I've already told you I've read much of it.Likewise
I see hypocrisy. Asserting otherwise simply means you are infallible and the rest of us must bow to you. I'm not sure if you can grasp this: 1) I see hypocrisy 2) You can deny it but that isn't really discussion.
Does it need them? I didn't miss the point at all.
Er, see the 'we' instead of "God" or "Allah?"
Again, see the 'we' there? Every prophet of God, spoke as God led him, and he said "God says.' God Himself, is omnipotent and doesn't need man to carry out His will. Jesus said He'd use rocks, if men would not do His work. There is certainly a difference, but not a good one, between the Bible and Quran.
You are going back to parroting. The politics are motivated by the very verses you just posted, among others. "We" became the moving force, and the means justify that end. God is apart from His creation, but interacts relationally. He 'can' us man, but can and does do things alone. He is sovereign over the earth regardless.
One that tells us the truth about ourselves and doesn't leave us in sin. This world is not a great place and is nothing like what God intended. If you think otherwise, you can have it, this world is not my home Hebrews 13:14
I'm not sure you get the point. We all aren't born good if all of us are on the path of destruction. Jesus said few find the narrow path that leads to life.
But not if we do not know that it is a sin. For example if we have mental issues/insanity, if we are too young (below the age of maturity), and for some sins (such as polytheism, trinitarianism) if we haven't heard the truth.
I don't love the ISIS but I certainly do agree with them in almost all their theological beliefs that are not political - except in the issue of takfir. That's the main difference. Sunni Islam is almost united in concepts of theology about God, His attributes, salvation etc
Have you listened to it?
I won't. The Prophets listened to the devils.
huh
Universal. Head and shoulders above the scripture given to just one nature, the Bible.
First person. The "we" is the royal we.
Are you sure?
You're mixing up the arguments. I said that they differ only in their political ideology and not in their fundamentals unlike Christianity.
You make no sense at all. I know that God is transcendental and that He is All-powerful. But I also do know that this life is a test in all fronts. God has placed the Truth on the shoulders of mankind.
Agreed.
What did I say?? I agree with that verse, it is very similar to a lot of teachings in Islam...
What justification for the rape and beheading of little children?
Lon
Well-known member
Muslims don't really know what Trinitarian is. We believe that there is only one God. There are some tri-theists, but most of even them, don't know they are. Trinitarians believe there is only one God.
There is a lot of agreement among Christians too, there is only a small portion of points we disagree with. There are many sects of Islam, as there are with Christians. Do American Muslims really not argue about verses? Jews don't all agree either. There are Atheist Jews, which is merely an ethnic assent.
No, nor really the Bible. I'm not primarily an audio learner.
I did miss the royal we. It is often hard to follow in the Quran, which is which.
I understand you think so.
Muslims don't allow it. If it were encouraged, it would exist. The Catholic church is more like what you are thinking of yourself, because they don't allow it.
No He hasn't. He has allowed man to be His vessel throughout history but doesn't need any finite being. He is completely capable of intervening and doing whatever He desires. He answers prayers without using any man to address needs. He has answered a good many of my prayers without a man ever coming near to be the hand He used to address those needs. He can, any time He choses, do as He wills, without man's interaction.
Man can handle tasks God gives, but cannot shoulder truth alone. You may agree with that, but Truth is too big, for man's shoulders. That and I believe were are born into sin.
Huh?
I understand it better than the average Christian. It is polytheistic in its essence.
One God = One Person/Essence
Worship God the Father (alone) just like all the believers before Christ did. They worship ONE supreme being that had NO parts or incarnations.
I love this passage from the Bible for a lot of reasons:
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
27 Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you seek?” or, “Why are you talking with her?” 28 So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?” 30 They went out of the town and were coming to him.
Come on,you can't be serious. Christianity has literally thousands of denominations and they differ in fundamental or theological teachings - Christianity has no social, political domain - so no debate about law.
These are some FUNDAMENTAL controversies...
1) Who is deserving of worship? Triune God (Trinitarians) or God the Father (Unitarian)
2) How are we saved? Work or faith?
3) Are there two gospels? One for the Jews, and one by St.Paul to the gentiles?
4) Original Sin
5) Calvinism - determinism, the issue of free will
etc
You will NOT find anything like this within Sunni Islam (85+% of Muslims)
Well
Truth
Churches...and their teachings
Yeah I agree. How does this contradict what I believe? We go a little further and deny that God needs a Son, for us to have a personal relationship with Him.
Lon
Well-known member
Then no, you really don't.
That's a very physically constrained parameter. God is not bound by our physical finite limitation. He is one, not poly.
God has no parts, other than the incarnation, and that was for a specific reason.
One of the reasons here, is obvious. Thin and proof-texting, but obvious.
Arians agree with you. Both they and you are wrong. You are "reading into" the text what you want it to say, rather than understanding both what it actually does say, and what it actually does not, say. Why? Frankly because you have to, in order to maintain, regardless of truth.
Just a little further: John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
John 14:9Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
Yes. She was debating with Jesus. The Jews and the Samaritans argued over worship of God. They were the rest of Israel that had been intermixed with other races. Such made their worship, necessarily about where else to worship God, and how else to worship God, much like your and my discussion here. Jesus told her that true worship would be through both Spirit and Truth.
Well, good, you've gotten both that He wasn't just a prophet, and not just Messiah either. What else could He have been? Since you are reading John:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
and
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
and
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
There aren't many Unitarians. There are less than a million.
This is the point of the Reformation. There certainly is a divide between these two. Does it amount to thousands? No, those are other issues like $, how the gifts are used, etc.
You are letting a glimpse of TOL fool you. There are even less MAD than there are arians/Unitarians on the planet.
Yep, this is contested
There haven't been that many of us in the past, though that # is growing a bit.
Think too, that with these disagreements, we are all found in each others churches and getting along for the most part.
Again, both because it isn't allowed, and because you have your blinders on.
Think as you like. Pure assertions don't really mean anything. It is simply indoctrination.
Yes, of course you do. You have to or you lose the whole thing, same with us:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Even with opposing doctrines of theology, it is good to see points of essential shared humanity.I never disagreed
Daedalean's_Sun
New member
So is that a yes or no? Is it moral and just to execute those who publicly criticize Islam or Muhammad in an Islamic state?
The ones killed after they refuse to convert.
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."
Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."
Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran
Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".
Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below. Islam sanctions violence as a means of coercing religion.
Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.
Quran (9:56-57) - "And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste." This refers to people living among Muhammad's own people who may not be true believers, but have to pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to which to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear?
Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."
Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has sub mitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?" So much for the earlier verse (2:256) stating that there is "no compulsion in religion".
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm
Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".
Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below. Islam sanctions violence as a means of coercing religion.
Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.
Quran (9:56-57) - "And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste." This refers to people living among Muhammad's own people who may not be true believers, but have to pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to which to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear?
Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."
Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has sub mitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?" So much for the earlier verse (2:256) stating that there is "no compulsion in religion".
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm
According to the law of God it is. You cannot violate the law of the land without bearing out its consequences. If I was the executioner, I would not disobey.
This is only in the case of blasphemy. There should be allowances in platforms of dialogue and debate. But to blaspheme the religion is tantamount to high treason.
I find no problems with any of these, if we also do not forget or overlook the other verses detailing the laws of Jihad.
I'm on the app so I cannot quote Scripture but clearly and explicitly the Quran has mentioned that you CANNOT force people to believe.
There are no passages in the Quran which would seem to force belief (military conquest for the expansion of God's rule is acceptable - just like expansion of any other state at its time was), except perhaps the passage with 9:5. For a good explanation watch this:
| NAK..9:5 | |