Is there any obvious evidence today for the biblical global Flood?

[VladtheDestroyer]

@Clete

I have only skimmed through this thread but I am fairly certain Walt directly addresses your objection in his book.

 

[Clete]

@Clete

I have only skimmed through this thread but I am fairly certain Walt directly addresses your objection in his book.

But not in a manner that is convincing. It isn't mere hand waving but it just isn't plausible and it is an entirely unnecessary component to the overall theory. Indeed, if accepting the notion that Pluto and it's five moons (a system that is wildly complex and which couldn't exist apart from fine tuning (i.e. it was created)) was put into orbit by means of a steam explosion on Earth was a logically necessary component of the theory, I'd reject the entire theory on that basis alone.

 

[JudgeRightly]

(a system that is wildly complex and which couldn't exist apart from fine tuning (i.e. it was created))

Because you say so?

Also, bump:

Realistically according to which model? Based on what it said below, it seems to be critical of the arguments from within the framework of a naturalistic theory of origins, and not from a biblical one.



Questionable, how? Sneaky naturalistic theory lense here.

And most, if not all, of those things are accounted for elsewhere, as far as I'm aware...



He posed the question, certainly, but did he actually state this as an assumption?



It's certainly mind boggling. But so is the scale of many things in our universe.



That sounds like it's comparing the numbers to a naturalistic model and finding fault because it doesn't match.



Duh. But that's at the ejection sites.

That's part of the model. The crust was, indeed eroded away by the fountains.

And as it was eroded, the gap (the "nozzle") widened, the amount of fluid beneath the crust depleted, and as a result, the flow lessened over time, until the fountains did not push material or fluid above the surface of the water.



Based on what evidence? You can hold your hands up vertically a centimeter or two away from a bunsen burner flame and not get burnt, and the fountains were cold, not hot.



Based on what evidence? Again, refer to the bunsen burner.



Well, yeah, it was literally a catastrophe.

This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that, as per the HPT estimates, it would have to travel vertically through a 60 mile deep crack in the crust.

And as has been pointed out multiple times, directed energy DOES NOT easily change direction, and boundary conditions, rather than total amount of heat, determine how much will transfer to the atmosphere or ocean. (https://kgov.com/heat)

View attachment 15746

This idea that "the atmosphere would become plasma-like" simply ignores this fact, wrongly.

See pp. 403-404. @Clete

 

[Right Divider]

This is probably closer to the events that began the global flood:

Scaling up your initial scenario from 100 billion gallons to 1 quintillion gallons changes the event from a severe regional disaster to a global planetary catastrophe. This volume represents about 0.28% of the total water in modern oceans, or roughly 1.5 times the total volume of the Gulf of Mexico, all compressed into a supercritical state.
If you release 1 quintillion gallons of supercritical water at sea level, the mechanical expansion phase does not stop in minutes. It completely overpowers the local atmosphere, breaches the edge of space, and continues to expand globally for days to weeks.

---

Phase 1: Planetary Shockwave and Hyper-Expansion (0 to 10 Minutes)​

The rapid transition from 218+ atmospheres of pressure down to 1 atmosphere causes the water to flash into steam, expanding to over 3,000 times its original compressed volume.

• The Mechanism: The atmosphere cannot displace this volume of steam quickly enough. Instead of forming a localized bubble, the steam acts as a solid physical piston, shoving the entire global atmosphere outward.
• The Scale: A supersonic shockwave circles the planet multiple times. Within 10 minutes, the steam cloud expands mechanically to a radius of over 400 kilometers (250 miles). The thermal energy releases a blast wave that shreds the crust at the release point and strips away the surrounding atmosphere.

---

Phase 2: Trans-Atmospheric Ascent and Orbit (10 Minutes to 2 Hours)​

At this volume, you bypass standard convective weather patterns. The steam plume does not just rise into the atmosphere; it blasts right through it.

• The Mechanism: The sheer physical height of 1 quintillion gallons of expanding steam easily exceeds the 100-kilometer (62-mile) Karman line. The expanding gas follows a ballistic trajectory into the vacuum of space, where there is no atmospheric pressure to contain it.
• The Scale: Once in the vacuum of space, the steam encounters zero resistance. It continues to expand at hypersonic speeds, wrapping around the curvature of the Earth. Within two hours, a massive, expanding ring of water vapor, ice crystals, and superheated mist encircles the globe in low Earth orbit.

---

Phase 3: Global Dissipation and Atmospheric Collapse (Hours to Weeks)​

The expansion finally stops when the steam runs out of thermal energy and encounters the cold vacuum of space, forcing a change from expansion to dispersion.

• The Mechanism: Without an external atmosphere to limit it, the vapor cloud stops expanding only when its internal pressure drops to a vacuum state. Solar radiation and the cold of space then begin to freeze and break down the water molecules.
• The Scale: The global cloud continues to expand outward into space for days. Over weeks, gravity pulls the bulk of the vapor back down into the upper atmosphere. As it cools, it condenses into a planet-wide layer of hyper-dense clouds, triggering torrential, boiling rains globally until the thermal energy radiates away into space.

---

Expansion Scale Comparison​

To see how increasing the volume changes the expansion timeline, you can compare the two scenarios below:

Metric	100 Billion Gallons	1 Quintillion Gallon (1,000,000,000 Billion)
Mechanical Expansion Time	12 to 15 seconds	10 to 30 minutes (Blasts into space)
Maximum Cloud Radius	~6.4 kilometers (4 miles)	Global (Encircled planet and outer space)
Total Expansion Duration	~5 hours (Dissipates regionally)	Weeks (Slowly condenses globally)
Primary Limit on Growth	Ambient air pressure at sea level	Earth's gravity and solar radiation in space

 

[JudgeRightly]

This is probably closer to the events that began the global flood:

Scaling up your initial scenario from 100 billion gallons to 1 quintillion gallons changes the event from a severe regional disaster to a global planetary catastrophe. This volume represents about 0.28% of the total water in modern oceans, or roughly 1.5 times the total volume of the Gulf of Mexico, all compressed into a supercritical state.
If you release 1 quintillion gallons of supercritical water at sea level, the mechanical expansion phase does not stop in minutes. It completely overpowers the local atmosphere, breaches the edge of space, and continues to expand globally for days to weeks.

---

Phase 1: Planetary Shockwave and Hyper-Expansion (0 to 10 Minutes)​

The rapid transition from 218+ atmospheres of pressure down to 1 atmosphere causes the water to flash into steam, expanding to over 3,000 times its original compressed volume.

• The Mechanism: The atmosphere cannot displace this volume of steam quickly enough. Instead of forming a localized bubble, the steam acts as a solid physical piston, shoving the entire global atmosphere outward.
• The Scale: A supersonic shockwave circles the planet multiple times. Within 10 minutes, the steam cloud expands mechanically to a radius of over 400 kilometers (250 miles). The thermal energy releases a blast wave that shreds the crust at the release point and strips away the surrounding atmosphere.

---

Phase 2: Trans-Atmospheric Ascent and Orbit (10 Minutes to 2 Hours)​

At this volume, you bypass standard convective weather patterns. The steam plume does not just rise into the atmosphere; it blasts right through it.

• The Mechanism: The sheer physical height of 1 quintillion gallons of expanding steam easily exceeds the 100-kilometer (62-mile) Karman line. The expanding gas follows a ballistic trajectory into the vacuum of space, where there is no atmospheric pressure to contain it.
• The Scale: Once in the vacuum of space, the steam encounters zero resistance. It continues to expand at hypersonic speeds, wrapping around the curvature of the Earth. Within two hours, a massive, expanding ring of water vapor, ice crystals, and superheated mist encircles the globe in low Earth orbit.

---

Phase 3: Global Dissipation and Atmospheric Collapse (Hours to Weeks)​

The expansion finally stops when the steam runs out of thermal energy and encounters the cold vacuum of space, forcing a change from expansion to dispersion.

• The Mechanism: Without an external atmosphere to limit it, the vapor cloud stops expanding only when its internal pressure drops to a vacuum state. Solar radiation and the cold of space then begin to freeze and break down the water molecules.
• The Scale: The global cloud continues to expand outward into space for days. Over weeks, gravity pulls the bulk of the vapor back down into the upper atmosphere. As it cools, it condenses into a planet-wide layer of hyper-dense clouds, triggering torrential, boiling rains globally until the thermal energy radiates away into space.

---

Expansion Scale Comparison​

To see how increasing the volume changes the expansion timeline, you can compare the two scenarios below:

Metric	100 Billion Gallons	1 Quintillion Gallon (1,000,000,000 Billion)
Mechanical Expansion Time	12 to 15 seconds	10 to 30 minutes (Blasts into space)
Maximum Cloud Radius	~6.4 kilometers (4 miles)	Global (Encircled planet and outer space)
Total Expansion Duration	~5 hours (Dissipates regionally)	Weeks (Slowly condenses globally)
Primary Limit on Growth	Ambient air pressure at sea level	Earth's gravity and solar radiation in space

It seems to think that the resulting rain would be "boiling."

 

[Right Divider]

It seems to think that the resulting rain would be "boiling."

Yes, I didn't really give it all the information required to duplicate what Dr. Brown believes were the starting conditions.
I'm assuming that it's using the ground level event as opposed to the subterranean and funneled situation that we believe was the starting point.

But again, my point (which I think that the output gets correct), is that the expansion of that huge amount of super-critical water would have taken quite a while and was not an instantaneous explosion of all of the energy involved. Clete frequently goes back to that idea (instant or nearly so) and that is where he misses the boat.

In my mind, the expanding super-critical water is practically the ideal type of energy release to propel planetary debris into space.... very immense but gradual enough

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, I didn't really give it all the information required to duplicate what Dr. Brown believes were the starting conditions.
I'm assuming that it's using the ground level event as opposed to the subterranean and funneled situation that we believe was the starting point.

But again, my point (which I think that the output gets correct), is that the expansion of that huge amount of super-critical water would have taken quite a while and was not an instantaneous explosion of all of the energy involved. Clete frequently goes back to that idea (instant or nearly so) and that is where he misses the boat.

In my mind, the expanding super-critical water is practically the ideal type of energy release to propel planetary debris into space.... very immense but gradual enough

Yeah, this wasn't a "crack" (detonation) kind of explosion, like C4 or TNT, where there's lots of initial energy being released all at once. It was a "pusher" (deflagration) kind, like ANFO or a bullet, where the energy release is much more gradual, and transfers energy mechanically to push objects.

 

[Clete]

Because you say so?

Also, bump:

No! Not because I say so!

Ever heard of the three-body problem?

Try it with six bodies! The idea that such a system could arise as a result of a steam explosion on a planet some 3 billion plus miles away is NOT PLAUSIBLE!

If Pluto was out there by itself, it still wouldn't be plausible. The fact that it has five moons, all of which are in very stable, nearly perfectly circular orbits in what is, in effect, a binary planetary system, makes it WILDLY complex to the point that it very simply cannot have happened as the result of an explosion that occurred billions of miles away. It would be like blowing up a steam locomotive in New York and it causing a Grandfather clock to fall on the King of Hawaii's head.