Different Stuff

[Nick M]

I pose a question, because I see one of 2 choices. When staring truth in the face, is the person stupid or evil when they deny it? That is a real question, and the person, here and everywhere really, explodes. Rightly so I suppose, making them stupid. Right here recently on the concept of everything is fully determined ahead of time, or it isn't. When you let God speak for himself in the Bible, people get mad. Not just here, all over the place.

Which seems hard to believe. Is it really just pride in not wanting to be shown they were wrong? I love being shown something I thought was wrong, so I don't have to be wrong any more.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

I pose a question, because I see one of 2 choices. When staring truth in the face, is the person stupid or evil when they deny it?

There seems to be a graded scale between stupidity and evil. I dont remember the exact verse but the prophet Samuel told Saul "Your stubbornness has become equal to idolatry!"

 

[JudgeRightly]

I pose a question, because I see one of 2 choices. When staring truth in the face, is the person stupid or evil when they deny it? That is a real question, and the person, here and everywhere really, explodes. Rightly so I suppose, making them stupid. Right here recently on the concept of everything is fully determined ahead of time, or it isn't. When you let God speak for himself in the Bible, people get mad. Not just here, all over the place.

Which seems hard to believe. Is it really just pride in not wanting to be shown they were wrong? I love being shown something I thought was wrong, so I don't have to be wrong any more.

As @Clete said, it's called entrenchment.

There is actually a term for this. It's called "entrenchment".

People make decisions based on a perceived cost/benefit analysis. There is no actual analysis done in the methodical sense of the word, but merely on an intuitive basis. Someone perceives an idea and a lightning calculation is done that instantly tells them (rightly or wrongly) that the cost of accepting such an idea is far too high. The more time, energy, money and effort has been invested into their current paradigm the harder it is to ever break them out of it. It simply costs too much. Imagine a pastor of a church, or anyone with a long standing ministry having to alter large swaths of the doctrine that they not only have spent years learning and teaching to others but that they also make their living from. Every friend they have probably exists within the orbit of that ministry. You couldn't hardly find anyone more deeply entrenched than that.

For this reason, paradigm shifts must be approached slowly, methodically and with extreme care. Each step that is taken on the path leading to the new paradigm has to be accepted fully all along the way and when the destination is arrived at, the whole path taken to get there has to be visible in the mind's eye such that it seems that no other path could have been taken. They have to feel like they arrived there under their own power and when the light bulb moment happens, they have to feel like they would have flipped the switch themselves had they known the switch existed. Otherwise, the new paradigm will definitely be rejected. It may be rejected anyway, but if there are plausible excuses to do so, the likelihood of the rejection is increased exponentially, especially for those who are deeply invested into that which they have to walk away from.

 

[Derf]

There seems to be a graded scale between stupidity and evil. I dont remember the exact verse but the prophet Samuel told Saul "Your stubbornness has become equal to idolatry!"

1 Samuel 15:23 KJV — For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[Derf]

As @Clete said, it's called entrenchment.

How would someone actually cause entrenchment in someone else? I ask because our church is going through Exodus and talking about God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I don't think it's necessarily difficult, but I'm not sure of all of the technique. For instance, I think Pharaoh had magicians who could make a staff appear to turn into a snake, and could cause water to turn into blood and frogs to appear, so He picked those signs on purpose to cause Pharaoh to harden his heart.

 

[JudgeRightly]

How would someone actually cause entrenchment in someone else? I ask because our church is going through Exodus and talking about God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I don't think it's necessarily difficult, but I'm not sure of all of the technique. For instance, I think Pharaoh had magicians who could make a staff appear to turn into a snake, and could cause water to turn into blood and frogs to appear, so He picked those signs on purpose to cause Pharaoh to harden his heart.

Bob Enyart gave this example (specifically with regards to how miracles produce unbelief) or close to it (I don't remember if it was two of his boys or just an analogy, so I'll just reproduce it as best I can):

Two brothers are playing, and the older one says let's go inside and have the leftover pasta that's in the fridge. The other says, no, there isn't any pasta leftover, it had already been eaten. So they get into an argument about it, and finally the older says fine, let's just go inside and look in the fridge. So they head inside and sure enough, there's leftover pasta sitting there in the fridge.

Do you think that the younger brother is happy about being proven wrong?

 

[Right Divider]

 

[Derf]

Bob Enyart gave this example (specifically with regards to how miracles produce unbelief) or close to it (I don't remember if it was two of his boys or just an analogy, so I'll just reproduce it as best I can):

Two brothers are playing, and the older one says let's go inside and have the leftover pasta that's in the fridge. The other says, no, there isn't any pasta leftover, it had already been eaten. So they get into an argument about it, and finally the older says fine, let's just go inside and look in the fridge. So they head inside and sure enough, there's leftover pasta sitting there in the fridge.

Do you think that the younger brother is happy about being proven wrong?

I'm going one step further, because miracles may produce unbelief in a hard heart, ie, someone who is already against the thing the miracle is promoting, which would certainly include Pharaoh, but miracles also produce belief, like when the man with the son whose demon would throw him into the fire and the disciples could not cast it out. The man said to Jesus, "Help my unbelief." I think Jesus did help by casting out the demon.

But all of that is a general thing. I'm suggesting God used His specific knowledge about Pharaoh to harden his heart.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

1 Samuel 15:23 KJV — For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Thanks man! I see I misremembered it a bit! Samuel said Saul's stubbornness is as idolatry. Not became like idolatry.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm going one step further, because miracles may produce unbelief in a hard heart, ie, someone who is already against the thing the miracle is promoting, which would certainly include Pharaoh, but miracles also produce belief, like when the man with the son whose demon would throw him into the fire and the disciples could not cast it out. The man said to Jesus, "Helo my unbelief." I think Jesus did help by casting out the demon.

Not that you're calling me a retard, but this is essentially what this response is.

But all of that is a general thing.

The general rule is that when undeniable truth (such as miracles which prove God's existence and might) is shoved in a man's face, his response will not be that of humility, but of denial.

I'm suggesting God used His specific knowledge about Pharaoh to harden his heart.

What specific knowledge?

Had not God been watching Moses' interactions with Pharaoh, and was He not able to see, even just on the surface, what kind of man Pharaoh was? He was the ruler of Egypt, and refused to let Israel depart, because that would mean a depletion of his workforce, and the existence of their God would undo any understanding and framework for the power he held. He was, to use the analogy, in denial of there being spaghetti in the fridge. So God showed him the spaghetti. And thus, as the younger brother in the analogy, he hardened his heart.

Further times, when it became obvious that Pharaoh was not going to let His people go, God used this to harden his heart even further, to use him in his rebellion.

God doesn't have some magical fairy dust that he sprinkles on people's hearts as some sort of hardening agent.

People, generally speaking, when shown the truth, double down as a matter of pride.

 

[Derf]

Not that you're calling me a retard, but this is essentially what this response is.

View attachment 15717

Lol! I call that the "door/window fallacy", not because anyone else in the whole world would recognize the term, but because when my kids were little, they would argue like that, and I tried to show them what it was like by imagining two people arguing, one pointing to the door, saying, "That is a door," while the other points at a window and says, "No, that is a window," followed by the first replying, "No, that is a door," still pointing at the door. Neither were wrong, except when included the word "No," and didn't pay attention to where the other was pointing.

The general rule is that when undeniable truth (such as miracles which prove God's existence and might) is shoved in a man's face, his response will not be that of humility, but of denial.

Agreed

What specific knowledge?

Had not God been watching Moses' interactions with Pharaoh, and was He not able to see, even just on the surface, what kind of man Pharaoh was? He was the ruler of Egypt, and refused to let Israel depart, because that would mean a depletion of his workforce, and the existence of their God would undo any understanding and framework for the power he held. He was, to use the analogy, in denial of there being spaghetti in the fridge. So God showed him the spaghetti. And thus, as the younger brother in the analogy, he hardened his heart.

Further times, when it became obvious that Pharaoh was not going to let His people go, God used this to harden his heart even further, to use him in his rebellion.

God doesn't have some magical fairy dust that he sprinkles on people's hearts as some sort of hardening agent.

Remember that God said He would harden Pharaohs heart before Moses ever left Midian...
Exodus 4:21 KJV — And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

... therefore anything He said could not have been based on interactions in the past between them. But God must have been "searching Pharaoh's heart" to determine the best way to free the Israelites (400 years were previously mentioned to Abraham).

People, generally speaking, when shown the truth, double down as a matter of pride.

Yes, but God knew about Pharaoh specifically, and had to to know that he wouldn't be one of the few that wouldn't double down.

 

[Derf]

Thanks man! I see I misremembered it a bit! Samuel said Saul's stubbornness is as idolatry. Not became like idolatry.

I remembered the comparison of rebellion to witchcraft (which Saul faithfully eradicated in his early years as king), but not stubbornness to idolatry.

 

[Clete]

Not that you're calling me a retard, but this is essentially what this response is.

View attachment 15717



The general rule is that when undeniable truth (such as miracles which prove God's existence and might) is shoved in a man's face, his response will not be that of humility, but of denial.



What specific knowledge?

Had not God been watching Moses' interactions with Pharaoh, and was He not able to see, even just on the surface, what kind of man Pharaoh was? He was the ruler of Egypt, and refused to let Israel depart, because that would mean a depletion of his workforce, and the existence of their God would undo any understanding and framework for the power he held. He was, to use the analogy, in denial of there being spaghetti in the fridge. So God showed him the spaghetti. And thus, as the younger brother in the analogy, he hardened his heart.

Further times, when it became obvious that Pharaoh was not going to let His people go, God used this to harden his heart even further, to use him in his rebellion.

God doesn't have some magical fairy dust that he sprinkles on people's hearts as some sort of hardening agent.

People, generally speaking, when shown the truth, double down as a matter of pride.

People used to be able to speak in generalities as a matter of course and people simply understood that it was a generality. Now everything has to be so explicit. Then when you're explicit, you're get accused of being hostile.

Our society is disintegrating before our very eyes.

 

[Derf]

People used to be able to speak in generalities as a matter of course and people simply understood that it was a generality. Now everything has to be so explicit. Then when you're explicit, you're get accused of being hostile.

Our society is disintegrating before our very eyes.

Who's accusing anyone of being hostile?

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

I remembered the comparison of rebellion to witchcraft (which Saul faithfully eradicated in his early years as king), but not stubbornness to idolatry.

That's kind of an odd coincidence. I'm familiar enough with the Old Testament that I could remember it was either in chapter 15 or 16. I just wasn't able to look it up at the time. But I didn't remember the rebellion to witchcraft part at all.

 

[Right Divider]

Who's accusing anyone of being hostile?

He was making a generalization.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

People used to be able to speak in generalities as a matter of course and people simply understood that it was a generality. Now everything has to be so explicit. Then when you're explicit, you're get accused of being hostile.

Our society is disintegrating before our very eyes.

I said goodbye to one of my colleagues recently, just as I was leaving work and told him to have a good night. He checked something on his phone and told me that it won't nighttime for another 3 hours.

 

[Right Divider]

 

[JudgeRightly]

View attachment 15720

The purpose of a system is what it does.