Let's try something new: Do we agree on anything?

[Derf]

It makes little sense for it to be done that way, and the only reason to keep holding to that idea is a commitment to the belief that they all preached the same thing.

It makes far more sense for it to be a change in dispensations, where the leadership of the former is not aptly suitable for preaching the latter, so a new leader is hand-picked by God to take that gospel to the rest of the world.

Otherwise, why not just send one of the twelve? Or more? Surely dividing up the twelve between Israel and the rest of the world would be smarter?

We don't know how the original plan might have worked. My thought is that the original plan involved much larger numbers of Jews believing and being sent out, but because Paul and company were persecuting instead of joining the movement, God determined a new way (one He had considered before, but wasn't needed until the Jews rejected their messiah and His offer of forgiveness, as Peter offered) of taking the message to the Gentiles, but not a new message. Remember that the message was verbalized somewhat by the angels at Christ's birth.
Luke 2:14 KJV — Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

 

[Derf]

Now, I'd love to hear from people who agree with things regarding the topic: Seeking to know our God.

You do realize this is more of a debate forum, right? If you don't agree, then maybe this topic is one you should meditate on a bit.

 

[JudgeRightly]

We don't know how the original plan might have worked.

Ever read Acts 1-7?

It was working, at least initially.

My thought is that the original plan involved much larger numbers of Jews believing and being sent out,

This is literally the plot of the Bible.

Israel was always meant to be a spokes-nation to the world. God had spokesmen (prophets), and tried to scale up. Acts shows that it didn't work.

So God went to plan B, a mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, using one person to go to all nations.

but because Paul and company were persecuting instead of joining the movement, God determined a new way

New way?

Try "mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world."

(one He had considered before, but wasn't needed until the Jews rejected their messiah and His offer of forgiveness, as Peter offered)

This is the plot twist of the Bible.

of taking the message to the Gentiles, but not a new message.

"You must be circumcised" and "you don't have to circumcise" are the same message?

Remember that the message was verbalized somewhat by the angels at Christ's birth.

Luke 2:14 KJV — Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Nowhere in the gospels is Christ's death burial and resurrection openly preached. And prior to Paul's conversion, Christ's crucifixion is preached as a condemnation against the Jews, not as the core tenet of salvation. (cf, Acts 1-7).

But that's the core claim of Paul's message and subsequently Christianity as a whole, that Christ was raised to bring life to the dead, not to the remission of sins (which is something only found in the Gospels, Acts 2, in Acts 10:43 in the context of Peter and Cornelius, and the epistle to the Hebrews).

 

[Ps82]

You do realize this is more of a debate forum, right? If you don't agree, then maybe this topic is one you should meditate on a bit.

I know and I'm willing ... but I have been called so many names and just been laughed at. That doesn't sound like a debate either.

I thought perhaps some of us could find some points upon which we could agree ... a foundation a beginning place of sort then move forward from there to more debatable ideas. Doesn't debate include some sort of underlying topic or agreement. Even those who debate how thing began have the same idea that it began. Right?

 

[Ps82]

Ever read Acts 1-7?

It was working, at least initially.



This is literally the plot of the Bible.

Israel was always meant to be a spokes-nation to the world. God had spokesmen (prophets), and tried to scale up. Acts shows that it didn't work.

So God went to plan B, a mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, using one person to go to all nations.



New way?

Try "mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world."



This is the plot twist of the Bible.



"You must be circumcised" and "you don't have to circumcise" are the same message?



Nowhere in the gospels is Christ's death burial and resurrection openly preached. And prior to Paul's conversion, Christ's crucifixion is preached as a condemnation against the Jews, not as the core tenet of salvation. (cf, Acts 1-7).

But that's the core claim of Paul's message and subsequently Christianity as a whole, that Christ was raised to bring life to the dead, not to the remission of sins (which is something only found in the Gospels, Acts 2, in Acts 10:43 in the context of Peter and Cornelius, and the epistle to the Hebrews).

My thoughts: The entire New Testament was the revelation of how Christ came as the Promised one ... how he proved he was God by what he said and the miracles he did ... and by the fact that he did arise from the dead where many people saw him walking around after he arose. As a Christians I believe those who reported the facts.

Now, there is a favorite place of mine in the OT which talks about God (capital G) mission to arise.
Watch: Ps 82:8
ARISE, O God, judge the earth: for you shalt inherit all nations.

This was talking about the promised Messiah.

Isa. 43:11 makes clear the identity of the Savior. Watch:
I (God), even I, am the LORD; and beside ME there is no savior.

Our Savior was God, who came as an individual human being, while being Emmanuel. The WORD, our Savior, was God and was with God from the beginning and finally came as God's living WORD. When Lord Jesus spoke, he spoke God's words. When he did miracles, it was the power of God behind his spoken word. The same power and WORD which participated in creation in Genesis 1.

Christ once told a group of unbelieving Jews. If you believe not my words, at least, believe the miracles I do. JIOW, Jesus did miracles only God could do. Jesus was Emanuel (God among us) come as promised as the GOD/Savior who came to ARISE

 

[Ps82]

My thoughts things invisible are real; so, this is what I accept. I'm not sure what you mean by "non dual nature." Let me see: A theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in some sphere, such as that between matter and mind, or God and the world.

Well, I believe God is all and is in all ... and all is in him. Is that what you believe? Colossians 1: 17 says: And he is before all things, and by him all things CONSIST.

 

[chrysostom]

"non dual nature."

one substance

 

[Right Divider]

Well, I believe God is all and is in all ... and all is in him. Is that what you believe? Colossians 1: 17 says: And he is before all things, and by him all things CONSIST.

That sound very pantheistic and not Biblical.

 

[Ps82]

one substance

I call that one substance: the invisible spirit
God the spirit is full of power, intellect, ideas, power, love, foreknowledge ... etc. etc. etc. You can't see HIM but you can witness with the eyes he gave you all the things he manifested for you to see. I think this is why people like to say: He created things out of nothing. I do not agree with that theory. There is no NOTHING within God. He is omni-present and all things came about and exist because he exists.

 

[Derf]

Ever read Acts 1-7?

It was working, at least initially.

Agreed.

This is literally the plot of the Bible.

Agreed.

Israel was always meant to be a spokes-nation to the world. God had spokesmen (prophets), and tried to scale up. Acts shows that it didn't work.

Agreed.

So God went to plan B, a mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world,

Agreed, but would it have remained a mystery had the first plan worked? If it was planned that Gentiles would reap the benefits of the grace of Christ from the very beginning, and it seems like it was, God could have brought it to pass through either plan. Because the first planned failed, the second plan was necessary, but that doesn't mean the objective was different, only that it was to be achieved through a different plan.

using one person to go to all nations.

I don't think that was the original plan B, since Paul was never alone in his journeys.

New way?

Try "mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world."



This is the plot twist of the Bible.



"You must be circumcised" and "you don't have to circumcise" are the same message?

They are not. But "you must be circumcised" was not the gospel, ever, as far as I can tell.

Nowhere in the gospels is Christ's death burial and resurrection openly preached.

No, because it would not result in God's plan for Jesus' death burial and resurrection. In fact, death burial and resurrection are not the gospel--they are only good news in the context of salvation, as you affirm in your next sentence.

And prior to Paul's conversion, Christ's crucifixion is preached as a condemnation against the Jews, not as the core tenet of salvation. (cf, Acts 1-7).

But that's the core claim of Paul's message and subsequently Christianity as a whole, that Christ was raised to bring life to the dead, not to the remission of sins (which is something only found in the Gospels, Acts 2, in Acts 10:43 in the context of Peter and Cornelius, and the epistle to the Hebrews).

But if sins are what is causing the death that needs to be rectified, then it is the same thing, similar to when Jesus offered the two phrases "take up your pallet and walk" vs "your sins are forgiven you." (From Mark 2:9)

In fact, Paul speaks of the same thing, using the same word, 4 times, only it is translated "forgiveness" instead of "remission" (I don't know why):
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; [Act 13:38 NKJV]
'to open their eyes, [in order] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' [Act 26:18 NKJV]
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace [Eph 1:7 NKJV]
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. [Col 1:14 NKJV]
But pretending it is a message distinctive when it is merely translated in a synonymous way is disingenuous.

 

[chrysostom]

He is omni-present and all things came about and exist because he exists.

That is close to saying nothing can exist outside of God. Those who would choose to live outside of God will suffer the second death.

 

[Nick M]

Paul talked to Jews and Gentiles. Peter talked to Jews and Gentiles

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter

Your base statement quoted is correct. The messages are different. The circumcised (Jew) is to keep the law of Moses. The uncircucmcised (gentile) is not. Scripture bears this out.

 

[Nick M]

I'm so full of words.

And seemingly something else.

 

[Ps82]

And seemingly something else.

You mean wisdom, intellect, and spunk?

 

[Ps82]

And seemingly something else.

Tell me Nick. Regarding what we(Chrysostom, Derf) have said above ... On which comments would you like to respond? Agreement or disagreement?