Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Clete]

Well, I think my point was if they didn't know salvation was a free gift, then they hadn't heard Paul's gospel at all.

Therefore they'd be carnal....not even a babe.

Oh man! I was really thinking we had come to an agreement.

I don't know where else to go.

I've had a couple of people who might want to borrow it. I leave it laying around for that purpose.

Let me tell you from experience. Loaned books are given away books. They seem to never come back.

 

[glorydaz]

I know about books. I figure if someone needs it bad enough to ask, I can willingly give.

So my quotes from Paul didn't speak to you about what to preach when we share the gospel of grace?

 

[Hoping]

I know about books. I figure if someone needs it bad enough to ask, I can willingly give.

So my quotes from Paul didn't speak to you about what to preach when we share the gospel of grace?

Perhaps this quote of Paul might trigger some repentance in those you preach to..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[Clete]

I know about books. I figure if someone needs it bad enough to ask, I can willingly give.

So my quotes from Paul didn't speak to you about what to preach when we share the gospel of grace?

Paul was teaching that stuff to believers, not potential converts. Thus, your argument, once again, establishes the truth that grace is a gift but not that knowing that truth is needed to become saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul was teaching that stuff to believers, not potential converts. Thus, your argument, once again, establishes the truth that grace is a gift but not that knowing that truth is needed to become saved.

What? No one is a believer until they hear and respond to the gospel.
There were probably as many unbelievers in those assemblies as there are in any other assembly.
Paul admonishes people to examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

So what part is it that unbelievers need to hear?
Just the dbr? Clearly not as your list is evidence of.

Just as your "points" are endeavoring to do, I'm doing the same.
We are to be ministers and stewards of the gospel. What does Paul write that is not part of his gospel?

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

 

[Idolater]

What? No one is a believer until they hear and respond to the gospel.
There were probably as many unbelievers in those assemblies as there are in any other assembly.
Paul admonishes people to examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

So what part is it that unbelievers need to hear?
Just the dbr? Clearly not as your list is evidence of.

Just as your "points" are endeavoring to do, I'm doing the same.
We are to be ministers and stewards of the gospel. What does Paul write that is not part of his gospel?

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

Clete's more Catholic than the pope. He thinks people have to believe more Catholic points in order to be saved, than even the pope does.

 

[Idolater]

Clete's more Catholic than the pope. He thinks people have to believe more Catholic points in order to be saved, than even the pope does.

@Clete just in case you missed it. I think the argument for me is taking a cue from @glorydaz in saying your six points are too much. I agree with all your points, I think everyone in this thread believes your six proposed points, it's just whether or not we have to believe them to be saved.

This is like, Are we cutting the baby in half? Or is it a load of bread, so it's OK. Is it a good compromise? If we can get more people into heaven if we loose instead of bind here, is it worth the fact that we'll only have half the loaf of bread? Because half a loaf is better than no bread. But if this is a baby, then we don't want to do that.

Your points are Catholic points, Catholicism believes all of those. So you're "more Catholic than the pope," because in your mind, people are required to believe more of Catholicism than even the pope says that you have to believe in order to be saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps this quote of Paul might trigger some repentance in those you preach to..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

God alone knows which of Paul's words might lead a person to believe.

I just know that unbelievers need to hear that all men sin, and God paid that price for sin by dying on the cross and raising from the dead.
That's why I've always found it effective to tell them the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life....

Actually, the verses I gave from Romans 3 are some of the best I know.

"What do you mean, a gift?" "Don't I have to do something?" "What if I can't stop sinning?"

These things are all addressed by Paul.

 

[Hoping]

God alone knows which of Paul's words might lead a person to believe.

Yes, and He will provide that which is necessary.

I just know that unbelievers need to hear that all men sin, and God paid that price for sin by dying on the cross and raising from the dead.
That's why I've always found it effective to tell them the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life....

We agree there.

Actually, the verses I gave from Romans 3 are some of the best I know.

"What do you mean, a gift?"

It is there for the taking !

"Don't I have to do something?"

Yes, accept it, with all its fringe benefits !

"What if I can't stop sinning?"

They will be able to stop, with the benefits I mentioned !

These things are all addressed by Paul.

Thanks be to God !

 

[glorydaz]

@Clete just in case you missed it. I think the argument for me is taking a cue from @glorydaz in saying your six points are too much. I agree with all your points, I think everyone in this thread believes your six proposed points, it's just whether or not we have to believe them to be saved.

This is like, Are we cutting the baby in half? Or is it a load of bread, so it's OK. Is it a good compromise? If we can get more people into heaven if we loose instead of bind here, is it worth the fact that we'll only have half the loaf of bread? Because half a loaf is better than no bread. But if this is a baby, then we don't want to do that.

Your points are Catholic points, Catholicism believes all of those. So you're "more Catholic than the pope," because in your mind, people are required to believe more of Catholicism than even the pope says that you have to believe in order to be saved.

There you've gone and said it. That's what they remind me of.

The Apostles Creed.

 

[Idolater]

There you've gone and said it. That's what they remind me of.

The Apostles Creed.

We confess the Apostles Creed sometimes during the liturgical year, I can't remember if it's Lent, or Advent, or what. I haven't been Catholic long enough to know this stuff by heart. But I'm pretty sure, that sometimes, during each liturgical year, there is at least part of a liturgical season (seasons are Advent, Lent, Ordinary Time, and I don't know what else, and I'm not sure about their exact dates) where we confess the Apostles Creed instead of the "Nicene" Creed at Mass.

Here it is.

"I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,

and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried;

he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting."

 

[glorydaz]

We confess the Apostles Creed sometimes during the liturgical year, I can't remember if it's Lent, or Advent, or what. I haven't been Catholic long enough to know this stuff by heart. But I'm pretty sure, that sometimes, during each liturgical year, there is at least part of a liturgical season (seasons are Advent, Lent, Ordinary Time, and I don't know what else, and I'm not sure about their exact dates) where we confess the Apostles Creed instead of the "Nicene" Creed at Mass.

Here it is.

"I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,

and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried;

he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

This part comes easily to my memory. We had to say it every single day when I went to Catholic school.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting."

I don't remember this part, but I'm not surprised. It's been a long long time.

 

[glorydaz]

I always think of this verse when I think about the Catholics.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Clete]

What? No one is a believer until they hear and respond to the gospel.
There were probably as many unbelievers in those assemblies as there are in any other assembly.
Paul admonishes people to examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

So what part is it that unbelievers need to hear?
Just the dbr? Clearly not as your list is evidence of.

Just as your "points" are endeavoring to do, I'm doing the same.
We are to be ministers and stewards of the gospel. What does Paul write that is not part of his gospel?

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

Romans 3 is very clearly written to believers. He is not presenting that material to unbelievers. He's making the case that, as believers in Christ, we do not need the law because we aren't saved by what we do but by what we believe.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't great information for unbelievers to hear. On the contrary, it would be amazing information for them to hear and it may well be the very path that an unbeliever takes towards salvation. I'm also not saying that the fact that salvation is a gift isn't an important aspect of the gospel of grace (sorry for the double negative there). It's very obviously is an important aspect of the gospel - no question - but there are many aspects of the gospel that are not only true but that are amazingly important in regards to how we live our Christian lives but that are not aspects that one must understand and accept in order to get saved. The fact, for example, that we are identified in Christ and that His righteousness is now our righteousness and that we are NOW perfect IN HIM, that we are PREDESTINED to glory IN HIM, etc. All mind blowing stuff that a Christian MUST understand in order to grow in their faith and in order to have any lasting fruit whatsoever but NOT stuff needed in order to trigger the transformation from death to life, not need to go from being condemned to being saved.

To get saved, all one must understand is that God is real, that you have sinned against Him, that justice demands your punishment for those sins, Jesus died to pay the price you owe and that God raised Him from the dead. If you believe that and you call upon the name of Jesus Christ for your salvation, you will be saved.

And that's it! Nothing else is required. That alone, at least implies that it's a free gift, right? There's not a single hint of any requirement to perform any sort of ritual or recite any prayer or mantra, no list of rules one must follow or anything else of the sort and, if they accepted Christ on those simple terms, but didn't actually catch that it was totally free and they, in their ignorance, start doing doing doing instead of resting resting resting, then it doesn't mean they didn't get saved, it means there's stuff for them to learn.

In fact, I would venture to say that there hasn't yet been a single Christian who did not have to go through the process of learning that they effort to be righteous WILL fail. New Christians seem invariably to believe that "while justification is God’s work, by faith in Christ, sanctification (growth) is our work, to be performed under the influence of the gratitude we feel for the deliverance we have experienced, and by the aid of the Holy Spirit. But the earnest Christian soon finds how little gratitude can supply the power. When he thinks that more prayer will supply it, he finds that, indispensable as prayer is, it is not enough. Often the believer struggles hopelessly for years, until he listens to the teaching of the Spirit, as He glorifies Christ again, and reveals Christ, our Sanctification, to be appropriated by faith alone…" (Andrew Murray).

The point being that all of that is one aspect or another of trusting in the flesh and it does not mean that one isn't saved, it merely means that they're immature, as perhaps we all are to one degree or another.

Clete

P.S. These kinds of truths, by the way, is how it is so obvious that those who think they no longer sin are so ridiculously delusional. They haven't any concept at all of what the gospel of grace is really about. Their lives are focused on what they do and do not do rather than on that which has already been done. The first step toward producing lasting fruit in one's Christian walk is the understanding that you cannot live the Christian life and that the harder you try, the stronger the Holy Spirit will slam you down and make certain that you fail. The attempt itself is sin!
Until one gets it into their head that it is "not I, but Christ", then its just one long slog through the mire of fleshly effort which will only produce failure after failure.

 

[Clete]

@Clete just in case you missed it. I think the argument for me is taking a cue from @glorydaz in saying your six points are too much. I agree with all your points, I think everyone in this thread believes your six proposed points, it's just whether or not we have to believe them to be saved.

Okay, then make the argument.

It would be better if you made it over on that thread, but since we're this far into it here, I suppose it doesn't matter.

This is like, Are we cutting the baby in half? Or is it a load of bread, so it's OK. Is it a good compromise? If we can get more people into heaven if we loose instead of bind here, is it worth the fact that we'll only have half the loaf of bread? Because half a loaf is better than no bread. But if this is a baby, then we don't want to do that.

Your points are Catholic points, Catholicism believes all of those. So you're "more Catholic than the pope," because in your mind, people are required to believe more of Catholicism than even the pope says that you have to believe in order to be saved.

Stupidity. Literal stupidity.

The Pope is certainly NOT saved. No saved person could ever put on one of those ropes, much less allow himself to called the Vicar of Christ. His every breath is blasphemy. His sleep is sin so long as it comes within the walls of the Vatican!

Any Catholic that happens to be saved is so by the skin of their teeth. Perhaps that includes you and perhaps it doesn't. You've said plenty in this thread that leads me to doubt it but I also cannot ignore your now public profession of belief in what I firmly believe to be the gospel. Thus, I hold my opinion in abeyance until further evidence is presented.

How is it possible that a man who professes faith in Christ can pray to a dead woman? How is it possible for a man who believes Christ died for his sin believes it necessary to pray to that dead woman in mindlessly repetitive ritualistic mantras for the purpose of absolution by virtue of her intercession on their behalf before God? How is it possible that any saved person could put Mary in the place of God's own Holy Spirit?
It is contradictory and the Catholic's (i.e. your) actions are on the wrong side of that equation.

At best, you are double minded. At worst, you're lying to yourself. In any case, you're in big heep trouble.

Clete

 

[Idolater]

Okay, then make the argument.

It would be better if you made it over on that thread, but since we're this far into it here, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Can you agree with this 'framework' or 'scaffolding' below? It's from an earlier post:

"I believe in just one point even, if this person believes in Jesus, he or she or neither he nor she, is going to heaven.

"When asked, the Lord 'summed up' the Old Testament in 'one point' this way: " all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them"

"That requires a lot of unpacking. When asked to unpack it into two points of course, we all know that He said love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. So that is His 'two point' summary of the Old Testament.

"And those two points are directly related to His 'one point' summary of the Old Testament, given above, Matthew 7:12, viz., they completely elaborate on it. There is no loss of information or meaning, in going from Matthew 7:12 (the 'one point' OT) to Leviticus 19:18 & Deuteronomy 6:5.

"I have put forth two points, which are basically Romans 10:9 but in slightly different words (believing in Christ's Resurrection is as stated, and with the slight difference that I equate addressing Him as "Lord" with believing that He is God).

"I would submit however, that if we were to provide a 'ten point' summary of the OT, that it would be the Ten Commandments. What you're attempting to do with your 'six point' summary of the Gospel is parallel with summarizing the OT with the Ten Commandments, and so that's going to require a lot of discussion I think, unless we can all agree on where the Bible does list out ten points that could be a candidate for a 'ten point' summary of the Gospel, similar to how the Ten Commandments are a candidate for a 'ten point' summary of the OT."

End quote.

Could you 'sum up' the Gospel in one point? How about two points? Or, is it all six at its briefest? Any answer you give is fine, I just want to know.

Stupidity. Literal stupidity.

The Pope is certainly NOT saved. No saved person could ever put on one of those ropes, much less allow himself to called the Vicar of Christ. His every breath is blasphemy. His sleep is sin so long as it comes within the walls of the Vatican!

Any Catholic that happens to be saved is so by the skin of their teeth. Perhaps that includes you and perhaps it doesn't. You've said plenty in this thread that leads me to doubt it but I also cannot ignore your now public profession of belief in what I firmly believe to be the gospel. Thus, I hold my opinion in abeyance until further evidence is presented.

Looking forward to it.

How is it possible that a man who professes faith in Christ can pray to a dead woman? How is it possible for a man who believes Christ died for his sin believes it necessary to pray to that dead woman in mindlessly repetitive ritualistic mantras for the purpose of absolution by virtue of her intercession on their behalf before God?

That's not why you do it. There's unfortunately a long lexicon of jargon with Catholicism, and absolution is one of the entries in the lexicon, and it's ONLY associated with the sacrament of penance, reconciliation, or aka confession. That's with a priest, a confessor. The confessor would be sinning to divulge what you confess, it's called the sacramental seal, and whereas we think that telling the truth is always the same as telling the accurate, in the case of the confessional to tell the truth is to remain mum. To utter what's confessed is a sin for a confessor, to anybody and for any reason. Sacramental seal.

How is it possible that any saved person could put Mary in the place of God's own Holy Spirit?

We don't! Nobody does that! Not with authorization. It would belie a profound misunderstanding of Catholicism to do that, it is certainly not authorized.

It is contradictory and the Catholic's (i.e. your) actions are on the wrong side of that equation.

At best, you are double minded. At worst, you're lying to yourself. In any case, you're in big heep trouble.

I'm not in trouble. And I don't you, or @glorydaz or @musterion or JR or RD or any other MAD is in any kind of "trouble" at all, let alone 'deep trouble'. Someone who sees Jesus as just another 'demigod' or just one 'deity' among many; that's someone in trouble. Someone who thinks Jesus was just a man, who didn't rise from the dead; that person's in trouble. Not MADs who believe He's God and that He is risen from the dead----there isn't any "trouble" there at all, least of all 'deep trouble'.

Not in my view, and I don' think I'm being unreasonable in claiming to be speaking for all of Catholicism here either. My evidence? My "contextual reasoning" and all of the Bible and the Catechism, which is basically 'the teacher's edition' of the written expression of Catholicism, the standard by which all things are judged Catholic or not Catholic.

 

[Hoping]

Romans 3 is very clearly written to believers. He is not presenting that material to unbelievers. He's making the case that, as believers in Christ, we do not need the law because we aren't saved by what we do but by what we believe.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't great information for unbelievers to hear. On the contrary, it would be amazing information for them to hear and it may well be the very path that an unbeliever takes towards salvation. I'm also not saying that the fact that salvation is a gift isn't an important aspect of the gospel of grace (sorry for the double negative there). It's very obviously is an important aspect of the gospel - no question - but there are many aspects of the gospel that are not only true but that are amazingly important in regards to how we live our Christian lives but that are not aspects that one must understand and accept in order to get saved. The fact, for example, that we are identified in Christ and that His righteousness is now our righteousness and that we are NOW perfect IN HIM, that we are PREDESTINED to glory IN HIM, etc. All mind blowing stuff that a Christian MUST understand in order to grow in their faith and in order to have any lasting fruit whatsoever but NOT stuff needed in order to trigger the transformation from death to life, not need to go from being condemned to being saved.

To get saved, all one must understand is that God is real, that you have sinned against Him, that justice demands your punishment for those sins, Jesus died to pay the price you owe and that God raised Him from the dead. If you believe that and you call upon the name of Jesus Christ for your salvation, you will be saved.

And that's it! Nothing else is required. That alone, at least implies that it's a free gift, right? There's not a single hint of any requirement to perform any sort of ritual or recite any prayer or mantra, no list of rules one must follow or anything else of the sort and, if they accepted Christ on those simple terms, but didn't actually catch that it was totally free and they, in their ignorance, start doing doing doing instead of resting resting resting, then it doesn't mean they didn't get saved, it means there's stuff for them to learn.

In fact, I would venture to say that there hasn't yet been a single Christian who did not have to go through the process of learning that they effort to be righteous WILL fail. New Christians seem invariably to believe that "while justification is God’s work, by faith in Christ, sanctification (growth) is our work, to be performed under the influence of the gratitude we feel for the deliverance we have experienced, and by the aid of the Holy Spirit. But the earnest Christian soon finds how little gratitude can supply the power. When he thinks that more prayer will supply it, he finds that, indispensable as prayer is, it is not enough. Often the believer struggles hopelessly for years, until he listens to the teaching of the Spirit, as He glorifies Christ again, and reveals Christ, our Sanctification, to be appropriated by faith alone…" (Andrew Murray).

The point being that all of that is one aspect or another of trusting in the flesh and it does not mean that one isn't saved, it merely means that they're immature, as perhaps we all are to one degree or another.

Clete

P.S. These kinds of truths, by the way, is how it is so obvious that those who think they no longer sin are so ridiculously delusional. They haven't any concept at all of what the gospel of grace is really about. Their lives are focused on what they do and do not do rather than on that which has already been done. The first step toward producing lasting fruit in one's Christian walk is the understanding that you cannot live the Christian life and that the harder you try, the stronger the Holy Spirit will slam you down and make certain that you fail. The attempt itself is sin!
Until one gets it into their head that it is "not I, but Christ", then its just one long slog through the mire of fleshly effort which will only produce failure after failure.

Aren't you glad it isn't JUST you trying to live the Christians life?
It is you and the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father living it through you.
And it is possible to do perfectly...thanks be to God.

 

[Idolater]

Aren't you glad it isn't JUST you trying to live the Christians life?
It is you and the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father living it through you.
And it is possible to do perfectly...thanks be to God.

And that includes going to church weekly, right?

 

[Hoping]

And that includes going to church weekly, right?

Every day is the Lord's, and requires no "special" day of assembly.
Assembly is good however, as it is a means of fellowship and learning...without which, young Christians languish on the vine.
At the end of the languishing, is a second death.

 

[Idolater]

Every day is the Lord's, and requires no "special" day of assembly.
Assembly is good however, as it is a means of fellowship and learning...without which, young Christians languish on the vine.
At the end of the languishing, is a second death.

So if you NEVER go to church: Sin, or nO?