Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Idolater]

Here's your six points.

(The wording of each point is quite intentional so pay attention to the details.)

• God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
• Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
• Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

I bolded the 'barest essentials', in my studied opinion.

For me, my list would be at minimum "Believe in Jesus", and then when requiring more studied opinion I would offer the two bolded parts above to elaborate. There would be more elaboration after that as well, but this forms the basic structure of the Gospel if I take it any deeper than the very simple "Believe in Jesus". It means believe He is God, and believe that He is risen from the dead. (Basically Romans 10:9)

Okay fine. I'm all ears...

So I'll start at the top since every other clause here (beyond the bolded) I find to be superfluous when what we're trying to find is the 'barest essential' to be a Christian (saved person).

"God exists" first of all is unnecessary to articulate and confess, since I'm already saying your "Jesus being God" and this necessarily implies that God exists. No other option.

"[God] is the Creator of all things" is superfluous because it doesn't matter whether you confess that God created all things in order to be saved.

(In each of these clauses the basic process for me is to ask, Is it consistent with my theology proper (my understanding of God as a Person) that a person who believes in Jesus, but doesn't believe that (God is the Creator of all things), be saved by the Gospel?)

"[God] is perfect." "[God] is holy." "[God] is just."

While all true, it doesn't 'pass' my 'test' for whether not confessing the above would prevent that person, who does nonetheless believe in Jesus and that He is risen from the dead (Roman 10:9), from being saved and going to heaven after death.

==
This is all regarding your first point. We'll see how this goes? and maybe continue on to the second of your six points later.

 

[glorydaz]

I wish everyone understood that it is not necessary to respond to every point. All that is needed is for the response to be substantive, which yours is.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here necessarily. It just seems to me that my having intentionally left out any mention of good works in my list of doctrines is sufficient to communicate that they are not required. I am overtly claiming that it is list of ALL of the necessary things that one MUST believe to gain salvation and the fact that no works are mentioned directly implies that they are not required.

If we don't tell them that Christ did it all....it is finished....then they will, inevitably, begin to think of ways they can add to what Christ has done. I actually think it's part of our human nature. I've seen it my entire life, and that's why Paul makes such a big deal of keeping law and grace separated. In the same way, we need to tell people that God will begin His work in and through us, and we aren't to boast or claim those works as our own. When we think we can help God out, then the problems begin. I know this probably can't go in your list, but when I share Paul's gospel, that is one of the most important things we can get across to them. That we can add NOTHING to the work of the cross.

Let me ask you something directly...

Let's say there is a person who does good works all over the place as we all should be doing. The person genuinely loves people and desires to be a help to them and that's a huge part of why he does what he does but there's also, in his mind, this belief that if he didn't having this attitude toward others and didn't have these works as evidence of that attitude, it would mean he was estranged from Christ and was not saved. He is living out James chapter two.

I would say that person is not saved and needs to hear the truth.
He needs to understand that he can boast in those things, but not before God. No amount of good deeds can save us.

Presuming that this person does believe that Jesus is God incarnate, that Christ died for the sins that would have killed him and that God raised Jesus from the dead, etc - do you believe that such a person is saved or has he bought into the wrong gospel and is therefore cursed as musterion seems to be suggesting?

My answer is that to whatever extent he thinks his good works are earning him a place in Heaven, those fleshly works will be burned up and he will suffer loss but he himself will be saved, though as through fire.

Clete

I don't think Musterion was suggesting that a person can lose their salvation, but was addressing salvation, itself.
That aside, you're describing a Kingdom believer, aren't you? That's actually what Peter believed, right?

Is their faith in Christ's work on the cross or in their own works of righteousness?
I know that sounds like a cop out, but, in truth what else can we say.
God alone sees into the hearts of man.

 

[Hoping]

If we don't tell them that Christ did it all....it is finished....then they will, inevitably, begin to think of ways they can add to what Christ has done. I actually think it's part of our human nature. I've seen it my entire life, and that's why Paul makes such a big deal of keeping law and grace separated. In the same way, we need to tell people that God will begin His work in and through us, and we aren't to boast or claim those works as our own. When we think we can help God out, then the problems begin. I know this probably can't go in your list, but when I share Paul's gospel, that is one of the most important things we can get across to them. That we can add NOTHING to the work of the cross.


I would say that person is not saved and needs to hear the truth.
He needs to understand that he can boast in those things, but not before God. No amount of good deeds can save us.


I don't think Musterion was suggesting that a person can lose their salvation, but was addressing salvation, itself.
That aside, you're describing a Kingdom believer, aren't you? That's actually what Peter believed, right?

Is their faith in Christ's work on the cross or in their own works of righteousness?
I know that sounds like a cop out, but, in truth what else can we say.
God alone sees into the hearts of man.

Is manifesting your faith one of the "works" you mention?
ie., helping the needy, or, refraining from murder?

 

[Clete]

It's good to hear you say that, as it is sorely lacking in the general MAD report,

Stop talking about things you know nothing about. The single most effective, most evangelical, most stridently anti-sin / pure living, most people loving and most intellectually rational congregation of believers I've ever encountered happens to MAD!

and this is just an 'outside' but very active observer's feedback for you all.

You are really off to a bad start here with me Idolator. I can't tell if you're lying to me or to yourself. Best to just keep your mouth clamped tightly shut on this. In any case, none of us care about your judgment of us. You've not earn 1% of the respect required.

Incidentally the bolded here is in perfect harmony with Catholicism. "We all should be doing" good, basically.

"Should be" and "must" are NOT synonymous!

The former; and incidentally this is a very well put, worded and thought-through question.

Basically agreed, in sentiment if not in every detail.

Well, the Devil is in the details, Idolater!

Do you believe that a person who does NOT partake of the Eucharist, does not confess his sins to the priest, was never baptized, never once said a "Hail Mary" or participated in any of the other Catholic rituals. This person is going to heaven so long as he merely believes the six points of the gospel as I have presented them?

Clete

 

[Clete]

Here's your six points.

I bolded the 'barest essentials', in my studied opinion.

For me, my list would be at minimum "Believe in Jesus", and then when requiring more studied opinion I would offer the two bolded parts above to elaborate. There would be more elaboration after that as well, but this forms the basic structure of the Gospel if I take it any deeper than the very simple "Believe in Jesus". It means believe He is God, and believe that He is risen from the dead. (Basically Romans 10:9)

That all those six points are, Idolater! It's nothing at all but a fleshing out of Romans 10:9-10. Any disagreement with a syllable of it is to either misunderstand or outright reject Romans 10:9-10.

So I'll start at the top since every other clause here (beyond the bolded) I find to be superfluous when what we're trying to find is the 'barest essential' to be a Christian (saved person).

"God exists" first of all is unnecessary to articulate and confess, since I'm already saying your "Jesus being God" and this necessarily implies that God exists. No other option.

Stupidity.

You declare it both superfluous and necessary. Please try to follow your own logic.

"[God] is the Creator of all things" is superfluous because it doesn't matter whether you confess that God created all things in order to be saved

False.

One must believe more than that Jesus exists and that He happens to be a god. He is THE God, the Creator of all that exists both in Heaven and Earth. Confessing belief in ANY other god is not only unbiblical, it is blasphemy. It seems to me that one sort of needs to avoid blasphemy in their confession of faith.

(In each of these clauses the basic process for me is to ask, Is it consistent with my theology proper (my understanding of God as a Person) that a person who believes in Jesus, but doesn't believe that (God is the Creator of all things), be saved by the Gospel?)

Your theology proper does not include the fact that He is the creator?

Again, please try to follow your own logic!

"[God] is perfect." "[God] is holy." "[God] is just."

While all true, it doesn't 'pass' my 'test' for whether not confessing the above would prevent that person, who does nonetheless believe in Jesus and that He is risen from the dead (Roman 10:9), from being saved and going to heaven after death.

All of this is related to the same issue. One must put their faith in the right God and the right Jesus. Do you know how many cults profess belief in "God" and in someone they call "Jesus", neither of which bare hardly any resemblance to the real thing? They're all over the place!

By the standards presented here, you think Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will be saved.

Clete

 

[Hoping]

Stop talking about things you know nothing about. The single most effective, most evangelical, most stridently anti-sin / pure living, most people loving and most intellectually rational congregation of believers I've ever encountered happens to MAD!


You are really off to a bad start here with me Idolator. I can't tell if you're lying to me or to yourself. Best to just keep your mouth clamped tightly shut on this. In any case, none of us care about your judgment of us. You've not earn 1% of the respect required.


"Should be" and "must" are NOT synonymous!


Well, the Devil is in the details, Idolater!

Do you believe that a person who does NOT partake of the Eucharist, does not confess his sins to the priest, was never baptized, never once said a "Hail Mary" or participated in any of the other Catholic rituals. This person is going to heaven so long as he merely believes the six points of the gospel as I have presented them?

Clete

Why would he seed to confess any sins if he had ever repented of sin?

 

[glorydaz]

Is manifesting your faith one of the "works" you mention?
ie., helping the needy, or, refraining from murder?

I've refrained from murder my entire life....even before I was saved.
Helping the needy is not a sign of salvation. Sinners in Hollywood do that much.

As I've said before, you're under the law and you seem to like it there.

 

[Hoping]

I've refrained from murder my entire life....even before I was saved.

So your refraining from sin, (murder), has more to do with the laws of the area you are in than love of God...or the fear of God?

Helping the needy is not a sign of salvation. Sinners in Hollywood do that much.

Helping the needy is a sign that one loves their neighbor as they love themselves, which was one of the two "Laws" Jesus said all the Law of Moses and the prophets hung on. (Matt 22:40)
But the motive of obedience to God or to His Son doesn't always rule the "giver", like it does in the body of Christ.

As I've said before, you're under the law and you seem to like it there.

Like Paul said, it is written on my heart. (Rom 2:15)
Quite frankly, I am glad of it, as without it, I cannot glorify the name of Jesus Christ.
No murderers, liars, thieves, adulterers, or any other kind of sinner will be allowed eternal life.
As it is written..."That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:21)
No righteousness...no grace.

 

[glorydaz]

So your refraining from sin, (murder), has more to do with the laws of the area you are in than love of God...or the fear of God?

Helping the needy is a sign that one loves their neighbor as they love themselves, which was one of the two "Laws" Jesus said all the Law of Moses and the prophets hung on. (Matt 22:40)
But the motive of obedience to God or to His Son doesn't always rule the "giver", like it does in the body of Christ.

Like Paul said, it is written on my heart. (Rom 2:15)
Quite frankly, I am glad of it, as without it, I cannot glorify the name of Jesus Christ.
No murderers, liars, thieves, adulterers, or any other kind of sinner will be allowed eternal life.
As it is written..."That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:21)
No righteousness...no grace.

You're such a silly thing.

 

[Hoping]

You're such a silly thing.

No righteousness...no grace.
Grace reigns by righteousness.

 

[Clete]

If we don't tell them that Christ did it all....it is finished....then they will, inevitably, begin to think of ways they can add to what Christ has done. I actually think it's part of our human nature. I've seen it my entire life, and that's why Paul makes such a big deal of keeping law and grace separated. In the same way, we need to tell people that God will begin His work in and through us, and we aren't to boast or claim those works as our own. When we think we can help God out, then the problems begin. I know this probably can't go in your list, but when I share Paul's gospel, that is one of the most important things we can get across to them. That we can add NOTHING to the work of the cross.

I agree totally, I'm just not convinced that an understanding of this incredibly important truth is required to get one saved in the first place. It seems it is more an issue of how to live the Christian life once your saved rather than actually getting saved. I'm still open to the idea that I'm wrong on this, by the way.

I would say that person is not saved and needs to hear the truth.
He needs to understand that he can boast in those things, but not before God. No amount of good deeds can save us.

You understand that anyone who reads the book of James can easily fall into this type of error. Are you sure you believe that anyone who does is not saved? It seems to me that this sort of person is just the sort that Paul was talking about I Corinthians 3...

I Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

I don't think Musterion was suggesting that a person can lose their salvation, but was addressing salvation, itself.

I agree.

That aside, you're describing a Kingdom believer, aren't you? That's actually what Peter believed, right?

Well, not really, no. For Peter, my list of doctrines would have been incomplete, right? Before Paul's gospel, any gospel that left out good works and obedience to the law would not have been incomplete. James' followers were "zealous for the law" and that's good! They needed to be but with Paul, salvation got easier, not harder. Now all that is required is faith. Your flesh will crave the law and desire to make a list of rules and if we are weak then we will fall into that error. The problem is that we are all weak! BUT, because of grace are not required to fully concur the flesh. Which is a good thing because we are not capable of it.

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.​

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Is their faith in Christ's work on the cross or in their own works of righteousness?
I know that sounds like a cop out, but, in truth what else can we say.
God alone sees into the hearts of man.

We are in agreement that putting one's faith in works is a really terribly bad idea but it is faith that saves us, not the avoidance of indulging our flesh.

Clete

P.S. This has reminded me of one of the best articles I've ever read in my life so I thought I'd share it. It was written by Pastor Bob Hill.

You Cannot Live the Christian Life (Read post 1)

 

[Idolater]

Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

I'm happy to stop doing that. Please assist me in the endeavor, please provide an authentic expression of MAD so that I can examine it to lessen my ignorance. I have only been able to 'piece together' MAD from my years here observing, reading and interacting with you all.

The single most effective, most evangelical, most stridently anti-sin / pure living, most people loving and most intellectually rational congregation of believers I've ever encountered happens to MAD!


You are really off to a bad start here with me Idolator. I can't tell if you're lying

I'm not. Where lying means, with full knowledge and deliberate consent, to utter or imply a falsehood, I am not lying. I may be incorrect or in error, and if I am, then it is not with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

to me or to yourself. Best to just keep your mouth clamped tightly shut on this.

Again, I'm happy to do this. Please help me to do this, please just provide me with "canonical MAD" if you can; please.

In any case, none of us care about your judgment of us. You've not earn 1% of the respect required.

I know that----I knew that, when I said it.

"Should be" and "must" are NOT synonymous!

I never said "must". That's your word.

Well, the Devil is in the details, Idolater!

God is in the details.

Do you believe that a person who does NOT partake of the Eucharist, does not confess his sins to the priest, was never baptized, never once said a "Hail Mary" or participated in any of the other Catholic rituals. This person is going to heaven so long as he merely believes the six points of the gospel as I have presented them?

I believe in just one point even, if this person believes in Jesus, he or she or neither he nor she, is going to heaven.

When asked, the Lord 'summed up' the Old Testament in 'one point' this way: " all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them"

That requires a lot of unpacking. When asked to unpack it into two points of course, we all know that He said love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. So that is His 'two point' summary of the Old Testament.

And those two points are directly related to His 'one point' summary of the Old Testament, given above, Matthew 7:12, viz., they completely elaborate on it. There is no loss of information or meaning, in going from Matthew 7:12 (the 'one point' OT) to Leviticus 19:18 & Deuteronomy 6:5.

I have put forth two points, which are basically Romans 10:9 but in slightly different words (believing in Christ's Resurrection is as stated, and with the slight difference that I equate addressing Him as "Lord" with believing that He is God).

I would submit however, that if we were to provide a 'ten point' summary of the OT, that it would be the Ten Commandments. What you're attempting to do with your 'six point' summary of the Gospel is parallel with summarizing the OT with the Ten Commandments, and so that's going to require a lot of discussion I think, unless we can all agree on where the Bible does list out ten points that could be a candidate for a 'ten point' summary of the Gospel, similar to how the Ten Commandments are a candidate for a 'ten point' summary of the OT.

 

[Hoping]

I agree totally, I'm just not convinced that an understanding of this incredibly important truth is required to get one saved in the first place. It seems it is more an issue of how to live the Christian life once your saved rather than actually getting saved.

I'm still open to the idea that I'm wrong on this, by the way.

Good, so there is still hope for you.
And I would use the word "converted" instead of "saved", as our salvation still is in the hands of God at the final judgement.

You understand that anyone who reads the book of James can easily fall into this type of error.

Heeding the word of an apostle is never an error.
The reborn sons of God will be known by their behavior.
So will the unregenerated, by their behavior.

Well, not really, no. For Peter, my list of doctrines would have been incomplete, right? Before Paul's gospel, any gospel that left out good works and obedience to the law would not have been incomplete. James' followers were "zealous for the law" and that's good! They needed to be but with Paul, salvation got easier, not harder. Now all that is required is faith. Your flesh will crave the law and desire to make a list of rules and if we are weak then we will fall into that error. The problem is that we are all weak! BUT, because of grace are not required to fully concur the flesh. Which is a good thing because we are not capable of it.

You seem to be unaware of Paul's words concerning the death of the old man ...flesh.
Rom 6:3-7 describes how it is done.

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

This is a recollection of Paul's past, not his post-conversion self.
Up to the last sentence of Rom 7, that is.
" I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Here Paul summarizes his laments from Rom 7.
He announces his final disposition, that he serves the Law of God with the mind...(which is in control of the vessel); and is free of the fleshly old man that served the law of sin.
He isn't in the flesh anymore as he now walks in the Spirit, as do all who have crucified and buried the flesh, (old man), and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Remember, it is written in Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

We are in agreement that putting one's faith in works is a really terribly bad idea but it is faith that saves us, not the avoidance of indulging our flesh.

I agree, but the "works" Paul was referring to were things like circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping, tithing, clothing laws, etc.
Plus, the "flesh" has been killed.

 

[Idolater]

Good, so there is still hope for you.
And I would use the word "converted" instead of "saved", as our salvation still is in the hands of God at the final judgement.

Heeding the word of an apostle is never an error.
The reborn sons of God will be known by their behavior.
So will the unregenerated, by their behavior.

You seem to be unaware of Paul's words concerning the death of the old man ...flesh.
Rom 6:3-7 describes how it is done.

This is a recollection of Paul's past, not his post-conversion self.
Up to the last sentence of Rom 7, that is.
" I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Here Paul summarizes his laments from Rom 7.
He announces his final disposition, that he serves the Law of God with the mind...(which is in control of the vessel); and is free of the fleshly old man that served the law of sin.
He isn't in the flesh anymore as he now walks in the Spirit, as do all who have crucified and buried the flesh, (old man), and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Remember, it is written in Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."


I agree, but the "works" Paul was referring to were things like circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping, tithing, clothing laws, etc.
Plus, the "flesh" has been killed.

Standard issue legalism. Boilerplate legalism.

"Cleaner rat" alert!!!

Where's @john w at when you need em ...

 

[Hoping]

Standard issue legalism. Boilerplate legalism.

"Cleaner rat" alert!!!

Where's @john w at when you need em ...

Did I not include the description of the "legalism" that Paul was referencing?
It cannot convert men from wickedness to gracious love.

 

[Idolater]

Did I not include the description of the "legalism" that Paul was referencing?
It cannot convert men from wickedness to gracious love.

"Cleaner rat" alert!

 

[Hoping]

"Cleaner rat" alert!

Isn't "cleaner rat" an oxymoron?

 

[Idolater]

Isn't "cleaner rat" an oxymoron?

Exactly @john w 's point

 

[Right Divider]

@Idolater
This site has some very good information that could help you:
https://graceambassadors.com/what-is-mid-acts-pauline-dispensational-right-division
https://graceambassadors.com/questions

 

[Idolater]

@Idolater
This site has some very good information that could help you:
https://graceambassadors.com/what-is-mid-acts-pauline-dispensational-right-division
https://graceambassadors.com/questions

OK. But I would like to know that @Clete approves of this reference as an authoritative expression of MAD, I don't want to take anything for granted with him, tyvm.