Does God forgive and forget our sins?

OZOS

Well-known member
No he didn't. Why are you putting words in Jesus' mouth? Or did you receive a special revelation?
I do not have a "special revelation", I just have Revelation.

Revelation 1:10-18
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Revelation 21:6-7

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 22:12-16
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Jesus is God, He just said so.
 
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Hilltrot

Well-known member
Let’s look at these verses of Revelation in context so that we know who is speaking where and what is being described.

Revelation 1:1-2 NLT
This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, [2] who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who are the characters introduced here. Jesus is introduced as the messiah who is providing the revelation. This revelation was given to Jesus by the second character God. Jesus sends an angel to present this revelation to John. So the angel and John are the third and fourth characters presented. Nothing here is stating Jesus is God.

Revelation 1:3 NLT
God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near.

Once again, God is not Jesus here.

Revelation 1:4 NLT
This letter is from John to the seven churches in the province of Asia. Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come; from the sevenfold Spirit before his throne;

John introduces himself and offers a blessing from those whom he speaks for. The first is God.

Revelation 1:5-7 NLT
and from Jesus Christ. He is the faithful witness to these things, the first to rise from the dead, and the ruler of all the kings of the world. All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us. [6] He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.
[7] Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven.
And everyone will see him—
even those who pierced him.
And all the nations of the world
will mourn for him.
Yes! Amen!


He is also speaking for Jesus. Notice the differences here between the characters. God is described as eternal. Jesus is considered to be the first to rise from the dead and will rule forever. (Hence, the later phrase first and last when describing Jesus.)

Revelation 1:8 NLT

“I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.”

This is not being said by Jesus, this is being said by God.

John has finished the introduction and is now starting to describe the revelation.

Revelation 1:9-10 NLT
I, John, am your brother and your partner in suffering and in God’s Kingdom and in the patient endurance to which Jesus calls us. I was exiled to the island of Patmos for preaching the word of God and for my testimony about Jesus. [10] It was the Lord’s Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. Suddenly, I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet blast.

This is the introduction to the actual revelation and is a clear break from verses 1-8.

Revelation 1:11 NLT
It said, “Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”

The voice announces to whom the letters are written.

Revelation 1:12-16 NLT
When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands. [13] And standing in the middle of the lampstands was someone like the Son of Man. He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across his chest. [14] His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were like flames of fire. [15] His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. [16] He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance.

The description of Jesus using standard apocalyptic language.

Revelation 1:17-18 NLT
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. [18] I am the living one. I died, but look— I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.

Jesus introduces himself. as the first and the last and then explains why he calls himself that. He is the first resurrected from the dead and he holds the keys of death and the grave. The keys indicate that this power was given to him (by God) and was not a natural innate power.

In any case, Jesus is not declaring himself to be God here.

On to Chapter 21.

Revelation 21:1-4 NLT
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. [2] And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

[3] I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. [4] He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”


So, the beginning of chapter 21 introduces the one on the throne as God - not Jesus.

Revelation 21:5-7 NLT
And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” [6] And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. [7] All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

At no point in this passage does God say he is Jesus.

On to chapter 22.

Revelation 22:1 NKJV
And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Jesus is sitting on the throne of God with God. The throne is also his because it was given to him by God. This does not make Jesus God. See Revelation 3:21, 1 Chronicles 29:23.

Revelation 22:2-5 NLT
It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.

[3] No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him. [4] And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads. [5] And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever.


The passage is a continued description of the kingdom. There is also another reference to the Shema which very much denies Jesus is God.

Revelation 22:6 NLT
Then the angel said to me, “Everything you have heard and seen is trustworthy and true. The Lord God, who inspires his prophets, has sent his angel to tell his servants what will happen soon. ”

A reference to the angel in the first chapter.

Revelation 22:7 NLT
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book. ”

Jesus is not saying he is God here.

Revelation 22:8-11 NLT
I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. [9] But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”

[10] Then he instructed me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words in this book, for the time is near. [11] Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.”


John is discussing the conclusion of the vision.

Revelation 22:12-13 NLT
“Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

As discuss before Jesus is the “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End” in a different way than God. Jesus is the first of the resurrection. He has the authority over death. His rule will last forever. Having some of the same titles does not make Jesus God. After all, Jesus sits on the same throne.
Jesus is God, He just said so.
No he doesn't. The best you have here is Jesus sharing titles with God. Sharing titles does not mean that they are the same. Jesus using a title with a different meaning does not mean that Jesus is saying he is God. Jesus could have easily just simply said "I am God", but he didn't. In fact, he says the opposite repeatedly. The other writings also support that Jesus is not God.

The fact that you take this further and say that those who do not believe Jesus is God are going to hell is an additional perversion of the Scripture. It also defies Christian history since Jesus was not believed to be God as you believe it until the 4th century. So, you're saying that the first 200 years of Christians after the apostles are going to hell. This is silly and it is the reason why I responded to your statement in the first place.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
A perfect response from someone who has lost the argument.
You made no "argument". but you're just trying to make yourself feel better for looking like such an idiot. There are no other appropriate words to describe you. You called Jesus a liar publicly, and that makes you an idiot.

So tell us, dummy, who was Jesus before He was sent by the Father?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Is God Lord?

Does no one else have the title of Lord?
There is only One Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, and yes, God is Lord.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
You made no "argument". but you're just trying to make yourself feel better for looking like such an idiot
So, now you are saying that salvation is based on an IQ test?
You called Jesus a liar publicly
Exodus 20:16
There is only One Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, and yes, God is Lord.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
2 Samuel 14:17
1 Timothy 2:5
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Who/what is Jesus before He was sent by the Father?

Is the Father, God?

Jesus said "He who has seen Me has seen the Father (God); how can you say, 'Show us the Father (God)'?"


Out of the mouth of Jesus He said , if you have seen me, you have seen God.

You call Jesus a "liar", claiming to His face, "I can see you, but I don't see God".

Jesus made it plain, but you deny Him.

Jesus said to know Him is to know God (The Father).
Jesus said that He and God (The Father) are ONE.

You're an idiot.
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
You made no "argument". but you're just trying to make yourself feel better for looking like such an idiot. There are no other appropriate words to describe you. You called Jesus a liar publicly, and that makes you an idiot.

So tell us, dummy, who was Jesus before He was sent by the Father?
He was a promise.

Matthew and Luke discuss Jesus' beginning. You might want to read them again.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
He was a promise.
He was promised, because He already existed before He was sent.

"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Phil 2:6-7

"Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Phil 2:8

In order to "humble Himself", He had to already be in existence. God became a man, the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" Heb 2:14

God partook of flesh and blood. If Jesus was only a promise, then no one partook. You must already exist in order to partake of that which you had yet to share.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil 2:5-8

In order for Jesus to take upon Himself the form of a bond servant and be made in the likeness of men, He had to of already been in existence, and He was... IN THE FORM OF GOD.
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
being in the form of God, means what God did to form him, not God's "ideal" form.
You could pervert the text to say that, and you did, but in light of everything else given as evidence, and the fact that Jesus said when you've seen Him, you've seen God (the Father), I'll stick with His words over yours.
 
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JudgeRightly

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He was a promise.

Matthew and Luke discuss Jesus' beginning. You might want to read them again.

So does John. You might want to read all four again, as all four describe Christ, Matthew: the King, Mark: the Servant, Luke: the Man, John: the Son of God who is God.
 

JudgeRightly

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oatmeal

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I'm only saying to you, what Jesus says to you. Unless you believe that He is God in the flesh, you will die in your sins.

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God"
Show me the scriptures that says what you said

I'm only saying to you, what Jesus says to you. Unless you believe that He is God in the flesh, you will die in your sins.

Show me the scripture that states that explicitly.
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
Are you planning to take your Bible with you to heaven?

I have kids, I forgot a lot of errors they made when younger. I suppose I could dredge them up but that serves no purpose.
It is said that God is all knowing

If that is true, then if God forgot anything, that would be one thing that God does not know.

If God literally forgot one sin someone did, then God would no longer be all knowing.

So maybe we have to find out if scriptures tells us if God is all knowing or not
 
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