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  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by Danoh View Post
    I'll get around to dealing with the Twelve in/out issue when I happen to be dealing with such issues - I will not give you the shameful satisfaction of making such non-issues the issue; that you might get your sought after glory in the flesh of another.
    I could care less about seeking out glory in the flesh of another. I think that you attack me personally in the hope that no one will notice that you are unable to answer my points.

    Once again you do not even attempt to answer this:

    Here we can see that both Jews and Gentiles are baptized into the Body of Christ:
    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    In this passage Paul uses the pronoun "we" twice and from his introduction in that same epistle we can know that that pronoun is not only referring to those in the church at Corinth but also "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":
    "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

    All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore all of them belonged to the Body of Christ. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:
    "There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

    You have never given any evidence from the Bible that supports the idea that only some Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ while other Jewish believers were not. We are supposed to believe that despite the evidence which I have provided from the Scriptures which proves you are wrong.

    Then to make it worse you refuse to defend your position and actually address the verses which I quoted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Danoh
    replied
    Jerry, whenever you are supported in an issue, you right off toot your "Exactly!" horn.

    I can't stand that.

    When not supported, you bait and all the rest - repeatedly.

    I can't stand that even more.

    I'll get around to dealing with the Twelve in/out issue when I happen to be dealing with such issues - I will not give you the shameful satisfaction of making such non-issues the issue; that you might get your sought after glory in the flesh of another.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by Danoh View Post
    Never mind that John 3:16 is three years or so before the Cross, and that the Lord had expected Nicodemas to know what all He was talking about
    What is your point?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by Danoh View Post
    Lol, you legalist, you - reach for the convenience of the word choice of a dictionary
    All I can see of you, brother, is the fact that you are good at name calling. You certainly did not even attempt to address what I said here:

    Here we can see that both Jews and Gentiles are baptized into the Body of Christ:
    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    In this passage Paul uses the pronoun "we" twice and from his introduction in that same epistle we can know that that pronoun is not only referring to those in the church at Corinth but also "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":
    "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

    All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore all of them belonged to the Body of Christ. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:
    "There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

    I have been waiting patiently for one of you Neo-MADs to address this but once again I am disappointed that you did not even attempt to address it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Danoh
    replied
    Never mind that John 3:16 is three years or so before the Cross, and that the Lord had expected Nicodemas to know what all He was talking about

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
    It certainly doesn't mean that the devils who believe have everlasting life....does it?'
    What is your point about the devils? Are asserting that the Jews who believed do not have everlasting life?:
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

    All I see from you is an effort to somehow undermine the plain words of John 3:16.

    That's your problem, Jerry. You are so hard headed that you can't see the forest for the trees.
    You see neither since you are blind to the truth of what is said at John 3:16.

    The verse you keep citing is very straight forward, but belief is one thing to the Jews who needed to believe that Jesus was the Son of God...
    Yes, and when they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, they received everlasting life and the promise that they will never perish.

    Therefore, the content of what they believed for salvation was different from the content of what the Gentiles believed for salvation. But aside from that they were saved just like we are--by grace through faith:
    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    And if the Jews could not be saved apart from works, then it cannot be said that their salvation was of grace:
    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).

    Leave a comment:


  • Danoh
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Oh, so his teaching was not his testimony! LOL!

    The word "testify" means "to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief" (Merriam- Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

    That is exactly what O'Hair did when he taught about what is said in the Scriptures.

    But you said that his testimony was faultless but not his teaching.



    His teaching or testimony was correct when he said that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ. Here we can see that both Jews and Gentiles are baptized into the Body of Christ:
    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    In this passage Paul uses the pronoun "we" twice and from his introduction in that same epistle we can know that that pronoun is not only referring to those in the church at Corinth but also "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":
    "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

    All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore all of them belonged to the Body of Christ. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:
    "There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

    I have been waiting patiently for one of you Neo-MADs to address this but so far I have waited in vain. Now would be a good time to address this since we are now discussing this subject, especially what O'Hair said here:
    "Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).



    Out of respect for Mr. O'Hair the least you could do is to quote his own words.
    Lol, you legalist, you - reach for the convenience of the word choice of a dictionary

    Words derive their sense from how they are used, and in the setting in which they are.

    Outside of that, words actually have no meaning.

    Try having someone from another culture and language making sense out of any of these sentences.

    What did "drop a dime mean" when phone calls were ten cents.

    What did it mean when "acid trips" became popular within certain sub-cultures.

    Out of respect for Mr. O'Hair, the least you could is not make your needing to prove you are right the issue. You are way more Ironside in this - O'Hair's enemy - than even O'Hair's shadow.

    With me, you will get nowhere with your "prove me right" notion.

    Get over yourself, brother; the issue is the Cross.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by Danoh View Post
    I said his testimony was faultless; not his teaching.
    Oh, so his teaching was not his testimony! LOL!

    The word "testify" means "to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief" (Merriam- Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

    That is exactly what O'Hair did when he taught about what is said in the Scriptures.

    But you said that his testimony was faultless but not his teaching.

    He was still off on various issues because he was still figuring out how to tell when his hermeneutic was off.
    His teaching or testimony was correct when he said that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ. Here we can see that both Jews and Gentiles are baptized into the Body of Christ:
    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    In this passage Paul uses the pronoun "we" twice and from his introduction in that same epistle we can know that that pronoun is not only referring to those in the church at Corinth but also "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":
    "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

    All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore all of them belonged to the Body of Christ. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:
    "There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

    I have been waiting patiently for one of you Neo-MADs to address this but so far I have waited in vain. Now would be a good time to address this since we are now discussing this subject, especially what O'Hair said here:
    "Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).

    For example, contrary to Gal. 2:7-9, he had held that the Gospel of John was for us.

    He also still believed in the Spirit's leading outside of His Word.
    Out of respect for Mr. O'Hair the least you could do is to quote his own words.

    Leave a comment:


  • glorydaz
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since you think that you are able to say that I am blind to the truth then you must think that you know the truth. That being said, tell us your interpretation of the meaning of the "truth" spoken of here:
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
    It certainly doesn't mean that the devils who believe have everlasting life....does it? That's your problem, Jerry. You are so hard headed that you can't see the forest for the trees. The verse you keep citing is very straight forward, but belief is one thing to the Jews who needed to believe that Jesus was the Son of God and another to the Gentiles who believe the Gospel. Context is everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • glorydaz
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post




    When John uses the pronoun "we" he is obviously referring to believers:
    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1:3-10).

    So John is saying that when we believers confess our sins the Lord will forgive us our sins. He also says that if we believers say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    This letter is not addressed to any unbelievers.


    Paul certainly didn't preach that we had to confess our sins in order to be forgiven. Paul also said we are dead to sin and not under the law...that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for all who believe.

    Instead of obsessing over the "royal" "we", you should be looking at John's comparison of those who "SAY" (CLAIM what they do not have) with those who actually have and do. Claimers versus possessers. It's really naive to think that everyone John is addressing is a believer. Clearly John knows better than that. Why don't you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
    Nope, you're just flat out wrong and repeating it over and over again will not make it so. Now, don't feel you need to repeat it again, I see what you're saying, and your stubbornness has made you blind to the truth. It's like trying to explain to God's UNtruth that we don't have to OBEY to be saved.
    Since you think that you are able to say that I am blind to the truth then you must think that you know the truth. That being said, tell us your interpretation of the meaning of the "truth" spoken of here:
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

    Leave a comment:


  • Danoh
    replied
    Lol, Jerry - you can not get far with out your study aids; can you?

    I said his testimony was faultless; not his teaching.

    You've proven again that you read into a thing and then run with it.

    O'Hair holds a very special place in my heart; for his testimony as one who loved the Lord; was tireless in his work on behalf of the lost, and for his willingness as that rare Bible student ever open to correction.

    He was still off on various issues because he was still figuring out how to tell when his hermeneutic was off.

    For example, contrary to Gal. 2:7-9, he had held that the Gospel of John was for us.

    He also still believed in the Spirit's leading outside of His Word.

    He was a dear, precious brother.

    Faultless testimony.

    Msny of his people were the same - open to correction.

    Though, like the great man; they didn't take too well to being spoken down to.

    Leave a comment:


  • glorydaz
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since O'Hair's teaching was faultless, you must agree with what He said there. that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ.


    He said O'Hair's "testimony" was faultless...not his teaching. I only bring this to the front because it's quite a habit you have of reading into what was said.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Shugart
    replied
    Originally posted by Danoh View Post
    In O'Hair's case - his testimony is faultless. His understanding, though, still leaving much to be desired because he was still figuring out what went where.
    So you agree with what he said here?:
    "Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).

    Since O'Hair's teaching was faultless, you must agree with what He said there. that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ.

    1 John 1 is the same issue below after the Cross:

    6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    John was one of the Twelve so according to O'Hair's faultless teaching, John was addressing those in the Body of Christ.

    When John uses the pronoun "we" he is obviously referring to believers:
    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1:3-10).

    So John is saying that when we believers confess our sins the Lord will forgive us our sins. He also says that if we believers say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    This letter is not addressed to any unbelievers.

    We can see that Peter did in fact walk in darkness here:
    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).

    Obviously Peter was not walking in the light because he was not walking uprightly according to the gospel.

    Leave a comment:


  • Danoh
    replied
    Your response # 91, was predictable, Jerry - you ignored the references I gave you.

    My words offended you - truth tends to do that.

    And no, I feel neither pressured nor baited. Those bullying tactics don't work on me.

    Yours is the Old School Mid-Acts yet to recover from the errors of Acts Two Dispensationalism's conditional blessing notions.

    The error that turns O'Hair's and Anderson's last words only because their time ended... into the final word on a matter.

    I am sorry to have to appear to be your enemy in this, but you are off-base because yours is Old School Mid-Acts; wherein many refinements were still needed because the hermeneutic was not consistently being followed.

    In O'Hair's case - his testimony is faultless. His understanding, though, still leaving much to be desired because he was still figuring out what went where.

    Stam himself said as much about his on this in the preface to Things That Differ.

    Here, I'll lay out just a bit of one of 1 John 1 - without "the Greek," with its pick and choose problem; without "the best translations" with this same problem; and without what ever external writers might best assert the conclusion your inconsistent hermeneutic consistently arrives you at.

    1 John 1 is the same issue below after the Cross:

    6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    The balance of 1 John also deals with many of the same issues related in John 8 for example.

    But let's deal with this one alone - as to who those are who say they walk in light, but are not in the light:

    John 8:

    30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.
    31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    33. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
    41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from
    the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
    46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    Aw, what the heck, here is another - Matthew 3:

    4. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
    5. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    6. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
    7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Acts 5:

    1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

    Hmm, sounds like they appeared to have walked in the light - they sold their possessions as was their Circumcision doctrine; right?

    You know the rest of that narrative...

    Point is, there are many examples in Scripture as is of who John was referring to...

    Leave a comment:

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