toldailytopic "Evolutionary theory isn't about the origin of life"

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Did you not know that decay rates speed up by a billion times or more when half lives are measured for atoms stripped of their electrons; for example when ionized the 41-billion year half life of rhenium's beta decay speeds up to 33 years?

Are you aware that there is a natural process (ie, one that does not only occur in a lab) that can accomplish this, which renders the assumption that the decay rates are constant to be invalid?
What natural process is that? Citations to the literature please.
https://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity2.html (includes citations to source material)
Posts a link but NOT the relevant portion. Typical.
The entire page is relevant. Would you like me to copy the entire page for you to read? Or would it be simpler and easier to just read the page yourself on the site?
Well, no, the entire page isn't relevant to the question asked.

What natural process will strip isotopes of their electrons rendering the assumption that the decay rates are constant to be invalid?

Aside from a basic chemistry primmer… perhaps this is what you are referring to :idunno::


Decay Rates. Each radioisotope has a half-life—the time it takes for half of a large sample of that isotope to decay at today’s rate. Half-lives range from less than a billionth of a second to many millions of trillions of years.[14] Most attempts to change decay rates have failed. For example, changing temperatures from- 427°F to + 4,500°F produces no measurable change in decay rates. Nor have accelerations of up to 970,000 g, magnetic fields up to 45,000 gauss, or changing elevations or chemical concentrations.

However, we knew as far back as 1971 that high pressure could increase decay rates very slightly for at least 14 isotopes.([15]. H. P. Hahn et al., “Survey on the Rate Perturbation of Nuclear Decay,” Radiochimica Acta, Vol. 23, 1976, pp. 23–37.

A few decay rates increase by 0.2% at a static pressure of about 2,000 atmospheres, the pressure existing 4.3 miles below the Earth’s surface. [See G. T. Emery, “Perturbation of Nuclear Decay Rates,” Annual Review of Nuclear Science, Vol. 22, 1972, pp. 165–202.]

In another static experiment, decay rates increased by 1.0% at pressures corresponding to 930-mile depths inside the Earth. [See Lin-gun Liu and Chih-An Huh, “Effect of Pressure on the Decay Rate of 7Be,” Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Vol. 180, 2000, pp. 163–167.] Obviously, static pressures do not significantly accelerate radioactive decay.)

Under great pressure, electrons (especially from the innermost shell) are squeezed closer to the nucleus, making electron capture more likely. Also, electron capture rates for a few radioisotopes change in different chemical compounds.[16] Beta decay rates can increase dramatically when atoms are stripped of all their electrons. In 1999, Germany’s Dr. Fritz Bosch showed that, for the rhenium atom, this “decreases its half-life more than a billionfold—from 42-billion years to 33 years.”([17] The more electrons removed, the more rapidly neutrons expel electrons (beta decay) and become protons. This effect was previously unknown, because only electrically neutral atoms had been used to measure half-lives.[18]

Decay rates for silicon-32 (32Si), chlorine-36 (36Cl), manganese-54 (54Mn), and radium-226 (226Ra) depend slightly on Earth’s distance from the Sun.[19] They decay, respectively, by beta, alpha, and electron capture. Other radioisotopes are similarly affected. This may be an electrical effect or a consequence of neutrinos[20] flowing from the Sun.

Major corporations hold patents for electrical devices that on a small scale accelerate alpha, beta, and gamma decay, thereby decontaminating hazardous nuclear wastes. An interesting patent awarded to William A. Barker is described as follows:[21]

When a Van de Graaff generator generates 50,000 – 500,000 volts across radioactive material for at least 30 minutes, alpha, beta, and gamma particles sometimes escape. This large negative voltage is thought to lower each nucleus’ energy barrier.

While these electrical devices can safely decontaminate hazardous radioactive material by accelerating decay rates, they are expensive and have decontaminated only small samples. Many nuclear scientists do not understand why they work, but a few pages you will. Clearly, the common belief that decay rates are constant in all conditions is false.

We can think of a large sample of a radioisotope as a slowly-leaking balloon with a meter that measures the balloon’s total leakage since it was filled. Different radioisotopes have different leakage rates, or half-lives. (Stable isotopes do not leak; they are not radioactive.)

Some may think that a balloon’s age can be determined by dividing the balloon’s total leakage by its leakage rate today. Here, we will address more basic issues: What “pumped up” all radioisotopes in the first place, and when did it happen? Did the pumping process rapidly produce considerable initial leakage—billions of years’ worth, based on today’s slow leakage rates?



Hardly a smoking gun.

Far from being rickety constructs full of sources of error and unproven assumptions, radiometric dating techniques are actually on a very sound theoretical and procedural basis. To destroy that basis, creationists would have to destroy much of chemistry and a lot of atomic physics too. The periodic table is the bedrock on which modern chemistry is built. The constancy of the velocity of light is a basic axiom of Einstein’s theories of relativity, theories which have passed every test physicists could devise. The constancy of radioactive decay rates follows from quantum mechanics, which has also passed every test physicists can create. In short, everything we know in chemistry and in physics points to radiometric dating as being a viable and valuable method of calculating the ages of igneous and metamorphosed igneous rocks.

To charge thousands of chemists all over the world with mass incompetence also seems to be beyond the bounds of reason. Radiometric dating has been used ever more widely for the past forty years. The dates produced have gotten steadily more precise as lab techniques and instrumentation has been improved. There is simply no logical reason to throw this entire field of science out the window. There is no reason to believe the theory is faulty, or to believe that thousands of different chemists could be so consistently wrong in the face of every conceivable test.

Further, radiometric dates can be checked by other dating techniques. When they are, the dates almost always agree within the range of expected error. In cases where the dates don’t agree, it’s always been found that some natural factor was present which selectively affected one or the other dating method being used.

Creationists are forced to challenge radiometric dating because it stands as the most powerful and most damning evidence against their idea of a young Earth. But in the end, they are reduced to saying that "radiometric dating must be wrong, because we know it happened this way." And that is not a scientific position. If theory says it happened this way and evidence says it happened that way, theory must be revised to fit the evidence. Creationists won’t do that. That reveals creation ‘science’ to be a sham, and not any kind of science at all. - http://answersinscience.org/RadiometricDating-Woolf.htm

... large changes to a half-life require elaborate, expensive, high-energy equipment (e.g. particle accelerators, nuclear reactors, ion traps). Therefore, outside of specialized labs, we can say that as a good approximation radioactive decay half-lives don't change. For instance, carbon dating and geological radiometric dating are so accurate because decay half-lives in nature are so close to constant. - https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2015/0...lf-life-of-a-radioactive-material-be-changed/
 
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Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Instead of trying to bait me.... how about you discuss the FACTS about the ASSUMPTIONS that are the basis of radiometric dating?

I'm not trying to bait you. You seem perfectly capable of getting completely bent out of shape where it comes to science all by yourself. Where it comes to your supposed "facts", well, rebut Silent Hunter's posts on your beloved "assumptions" where it comes to the topic of radiometric dating. It would be pretty superfluous to add to them.


Firstly, no I did not. Quit lying... it's a shame that you continue to use that tactic.

Sure you did. Right here: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...of-life-quot&p=5358004&viewfull=1#post5358004

Namely this "gem":

"Evidence does NOT interpret itself. Every "scientist" has beliefs that affect the way that they approach the evidence."

Lie #10,002

No lie there either. You've been corrected on your errors about as many times as 7Djengo7 has been shown his basic error on this very OP.

So you will NOW provide some evidence that decay rates have remained constant for billions of years?

Again, refer to SH's posts. Perhaps you can now get around to destroying such as you've claimed a whole bunch of times already?

Scientific theories must be falsifiable. The "theory" is immune to evidence against it. It just constantly morphes.

It's not "immune" and you're hardly an arbiter of what constitutes science as it is.

We are amused.... except by your constant lying.

Amazing how many people like to refer to themselves in the plural on here along with projection...

Continuing to push that lie is not fooling anyone.

It's not a lie. If you understood how the scientific method works then you wouldn't have brought personal beliefs into how "evidence is interpreted" and the like. That's just as much of a gaffe as Djengo's OP in essence.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I'm not trying to bait you. You seem perfectly capable of getting completely bent out of shape where it comes to science all by yourself. Where it comes to your supposed "facts", well, rebut Silent Hunter's posts on your beloved "assumptions" where it comes to the topic of radiometric dating. It would be pretty superfluous to add to them.

Do you even know what the MULTIPLE assumptions are that are the BASIS of radiometric dating?

Not ONCE have you discussed the FACTS.

Sure you did. Right here: <a href="http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?133661-quot-Evolutionary-theory-isn-t-about-the-origin-of-life-quot&p=5358004&viewfull=1#post5358004" target="_blank">http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?133661-quot-Evolutionary-theory-isn-t-about-the-origin-of-life-quot&p=5358004&viewfull=1#post5358004</a>

Namely this "gem":

"Evidence does NOT interpret itself. Every "scientist" has beliefs that affect the way that they approach the evidence."
There is no such thing as the "unbiased scientist in the tidy white smock". That was my point.

EVERYBODY comes to the evidence with SOME sort of belief about it. You and your evolutionist friends are NO exception to that fact

No lie there either. You've been corrected on your errors about as many times as 7Djengo7 has been shown his basic error on this very OP.
Nope... keep on dreaming.

Again, refer to SH's posts. Perhaps you can now get around to destroying such as you've claimed a whole bunch of times already?
Stop deflecting and discuss the problem yourself. No SH not prove anything and neither have you.

Radiometric dating assumes:
  • Knowledge of the initial ratios of mother and daughter elements (unverifiable).
  • Constant decay rates for hundred of millions to billions of years (unverifiable).
  • That nothing but constant decay caused the final ratios (unverifiable).
Address the problem and quit with the hand waving and denial.

It's not "immune" and you're hardly an arbiter of what constitutes science as it is.
:juggle:

Amazing how many people like to refer to themselves in the plural on here along with projection...
We think that you're funny.

It's not a lie. If you understood how the scientific method works then you wouldn't have brought personal beliefs into how "evidence is interpreted" and the like. That's just as much of a gaffe as Djengo's OP in essence.
Measurements of this type require a scientific theory that is NOT based on MULTIPLE unverifiable assumptions
 
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Arthur Brain

Well-known member
<br>Do you even know what the MULTIPLE assumptions are that are the BASIC of radiometric dating?<br><br>Not ONCE have you discussed the FACTS.<br><br><br>There is no such thing as the "unbiased scientist in the tidy white smock". That was my point.<br>EVERYBODY comes to the evidence with SOME sort of belief about it. You and your evolutionist friends are NO exception to that fact.<br><br><br>Nope... keep on dreaming.<br><br><br>Stop deflecting and discuss the problem yourself. No SH not prove anything and neither have you.<br><br>Radiometric dating assumes:<ul><li>Knowledge of the initial ratios of mother and daughter (unverifiable).</li><li>Constant decay rates for hundred of millions to billions of years (unverifiable).</li><li>That nothing but constant decay caused the final ratios (unverifiable).</li></ul>Address the problem and quit with the hand waving and denial.<br><br><br>:juggle:<br><br><br>We think that you're funny.<br><br><br>Measurements require a scientific theory that is NOT based on MULTIPLE unverifiable assumptions.<br>
<br>

Um, this may not be your error as such but what the heck is with the formatting on this post?

:freak:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Do you even know what the MULTIPLE assumptions are that are the BASIC of radiometric dating?

Not ONCE have you discussed the FACTS.

Yes, I linked to the material often enough that explained in detail how such conclusions are arrived at with an accuracy that isn't determined to an actual "year" but with enough data that supports the universe being billions, not thousands of years old and with multiple methods that underline that. Heck, even in YEC there's jiggle room as to just how old the earth supposedly is. Why is that? What's four thousand years between YEC'ers?

There is no such thing as the "unbiased scientist in the tidy white smock". That was my point.

As before, the evidence holds up if it stands up to scrutiny and continual testing. Personal beliefs are irrelevant. The scientific method doesn't care about beliefs.

EVERYBODY comes to the evidence with SOME sort of belief about it. You and your evolutionist friends are NO exception to that fact

Well, your beliefs are certainly apparent but that doesn't affect the way that the scientific method works. Theories are formulated around the evidence, not the other way around. Do you suppose the DNA double helix theory came about on a whim? Science is not obligated to take anyone's beliefs into account, no matter what they are.

Nope... keep on dreaming.

Well, no. Else get on and rebut SH.

Stop deflecting and discuss the problem yourself. No SH not prove anything and neither have you.

I've got nothing to add to what SH has pointed out. Do you want me to copy and paste his replies? Get on and refute such, or don't. Up to you.

Radiometric dating assumes:
  • Knowledge of the initial ratios of mother and daughter elements (unverifiable).
  • Constant decay rates for hundred of millions to billions of years (unverifiable).
  • That nothing but constant decay caused the final ratios (unverifiable).
Address the problem and quit with the hand waving and denial.

As above. Are you just looking for a squabble or interested in legitimately looking at the evidence? Are you so invested in a fundamentalist belief system whereby anything that precludes a young earth is untenable to you? Would you seriously give consideration to anything that counters that? Do you think that science the globe over is just mocking Christianity or something because it doesn't tie in with the fundamentalist notion of a young earth? Seriously, do you even question that?


:juggle:

We think that you're funny.

Eh, okay then.

Measurements of this type require a scientific theory that is NOT based on MULTIPLE unverifiable assumptions

What, a scientific theory that "measures" up to your "requirements"?

Now that's funny...

:D
 

JudgeRightly

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I didn't format it that way. I tried to repair.

I had to use Firefox... could not even edit with Google Chrome.
Don't copy/paste the text off the site. For some reason it copies the site formatting as well. Use the QUOTE button if you need to quote something.
 

JudgeRightly

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Well, no, the entire page isn't relevant to the question asked.

What natural process will strip isotopes of their electrons rendering the assumption that the decay rates are constant to be invalid?

Aside from a basic chemistry primmer… perhaps this is what you are referring to :idunno::

. . .

Hardly a smoking gun.

And yet, it shows that even though the half-lives of radioactive elements is known, it CAN and DOES change when they are put under pressure.

Which means that assuming that the decay rates, while known, are always constant will skew any results that you get when using radioactive dating methods, because you fail to account for the fact that the half-lives can and do change.

Far from being rickety constructs full of sources of error and unproven assumptions, radiometric dating techniques are actually on a very sound theoretical and procedural basis. To destroy that basis, creationists would have to destroy much of chemistry and a lot of atomic physics too.

And all of that is based on 3 unverifiable assumptions.

The periodic table is the bedrock on which modern chemistry is built. The constancy of the velocity of light is a basic axiom of Einstein’s theories of relativity, theories which have passed every test physicists could devise.

Red herring.

The constancy of radioactive decay rates follows from quantum mechanics, which has also passed every test physicists can create. In short, everything we know in chemistry and in physics points to radiometric dating as being a viable and valuable method of calculating the ages of igneous and metamorphosed igneous rocks.

You forgot to add "decay rates under normal circumstances..."

There are, however, circumstances where the half-lives can be decreased by over a billionfold.

To charge thousands of chemists all over the world with mass incompetence also seems to be beyond the bounds of reason.

No one has done so, because it would be an ad hominem.

Rather, what has been put forth is that the dating techniques those scientists use are based on unverifiable assumptions, which skews any result they get.

Radiometric dating has been used ever more widely for the past forty years.

This is an appeal to tradition.

The dates produced have gotten steadily more precise as lab techniques and instrumentation has been improved. There is simply no logical reason to throw this entire field of science out the window.

Because you say so?

There is no reason to believe the theory is faulty,

It is inherently faulty because it relies on unverifiable assumptions.

or to believe that thousands of different chemists could be so consistently wrong in the face of every conceivable test.

Further, radiometric dates can be checked by other dating techniques.

And those dating techniques are checked by using radiometric dating.

In other words, they use circular reasoning to establish millions and billions of years.

When they are, the dates almost always agree within the range of expected error.

Of course they do. Except when they don't, and then they change the expected date ranges to match their results.

In cases where the dates don’t agree, it’s always been found that some natural factor was present which selectively affected one or the other dating method being used.

Creationists are forced to challenge radiometric dating because it stands as the most powerful and most damning evidence against their idea of a young Earth.

Because he says so?

But in the end, they are reduced to saying that "radiometric dating must be wrong, because we know it happened this way."

Radiometric dating IS wrong, because it is based on unverifiable assumptions.

And that is not a scientific position. If theory says it happened this way and evidence says it happened that way, theory must be revised to fit the evidence.

The best way to determine if a theory is a good one or not is by it's predictions.

When a theory's predictions are almost always wrong, no matter how many changes are made, the theory should be discarded.

Creationists won’t do that. That reveals creation ‘science’ to be a sham, and not any kind of science at all. - http://answersinscience.org/RadiometricDating-Woolf.htm

Sounds like that person just has an axe to grind.

... large changes to a half-life require elaborate, expensive, high-energy equipment (e.g. particle accelerators, nuclear reactors, ion traps).

As you were just shown, no, such changes do not require such equipment.

All it takes is intense pressure.

Therefore, outside of specialized labs, we can say that as a good approximation radioactive decay half-lives don't change. For instance, carbon dating and geological radiometric dating are so accurate because decay half-lives in nature are so close to constant. - https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2015/0...lf-life-of-a-radioactive-material-be-changed/

Which was just shown to be incorrect.

Intense pressure can and does change half-lives.

As you yourself quoted from the page (but probably didn't bother to read thoroughly):


Under great pressure, electrons (especially from the innermost shell) are squeezed closer to the nucleus, making electron capture more likely. Also, electron capture rates for a few radioisotopes change in different chemical compounds.[16] Beta decay rates can increase dramatically when atoms are stripped of all their electrons. In 1999, Germany’s Dr. Fritz Bosch showed that, for the rhenium atom, this “decreases its half-life more than a billionfold—from 42-billion years to 33 years.”([17] The more electrons removed, the more rapidly neutrons expel electrons (beta decay) and become protons. This effect was previously unknown, because only electrically neutral atoms had been used to measure half-lives.[18]

Decay rates for silicon-32 (32Si), chlorine-36 (36Cl), manganese-54 (54Mn), and radium-226 (226Ra) depend slightly on Earth’s distance from the Sun.[19] They decay, respectively, by beta, alpha, and electron capture. Other radioisotopes are similarly affected. This may be an electrical effect or a consequence of neutrinos[20] flowing from the Sun.

Major corporations hold patents for electrical devices that on a small scale accelerate alpha, beta, and gamma decay, thereby decontaminating hazardous nuclear wastes. An interesting patent awarded to William A. Barker is described as follows:[21]

When a Van de Graaff generator generates 50,000 – 500,000 volts across radioactive material for at least 30 minutes, alpha, beta, and gamma particles sometimes escape. This large negative voltage is thought to lower each nucleus’ energy barrier.

While these electrical devices can safely decontaminate hazardous radioactive material by accelerating decay rates, they are expensive and have decontaminated only small samples. Many nuclear scientists do not understand why they work, but a few pages you will. Clearly, the common belief that decay rates are constant in all conditions is false.

 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
I never collected Pokemon cards even when it was all the rage. Zero interest then or now. Obviously I don't agree with you as that would just be silly all ends up and show a complete misunderstanding of what the theory of evolution is even about. Bizarre that you would accuse me of "trolling" your thread after you've just "replied" to me three times on the bounce as well. I'm using the term "reply" loosely as you probably gathered, but who knows...

:liberals:

LOL

Ah, what a shock! More trolling from Arthur Brain.

Arthur, you should probably stick to your Pokemon collecting, and cut your losses with your dismally failed attempts as an apologist for the nonsense you call "the theory of evolution", since you have consistently demonstrated your incompetence to speak even the least bit coherently regarding your use of words such as "evolution", "evolve", "species", "population", etc.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
LOL

Ah, what a shock! More trolling from Arthur Brain.

Arthur, you should probably stick to your Pokemon collecting, and cut your losses with your dismally failed attempts as an apologist for the nonsense you call "the theory of evolution", since you have consistently demonstrated your incompetence to speak even the least bit coherently regarding your use of words such as "evolution", "evolve", "species", "population", etc.

Hard to stick to something I've never actually done but you certainly seem to have a fixation with it. Do you still need some to complete your collection?

And yet, it is more coherent than anything you've written in this thread, thus far, Arthur <br><br><br>ain.

Well, you've got the same comprehension difficulties where it comes to reading as you do with science then.

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life itself. The poster you quoted in your OP (Barbarian, as I recall) was correct. You weren't.

Deal with it.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Well, no, the entire page isn't relevant to the question asked.

What natural process will strip isotopes of their electrons rendering the assumption that the decay rates are constant to be invalid?

Aside from a basic chemistry primmer… perhaps this is what you are referring to :idunno::

Hardly a smoking gun.
And yet, it shows that even though the half-lives of radioactive elements is known, it CAN and DOES change when they are put under pressure.

Which means that assuming that the decay rates, while known, are always constant will skew any results that you get when using radioactive dating methods, because you fail to account for the fact that the half-lives can and do change.
Your “argument” is NOT very convincing.

Per YOUR link:

However, we knew as far back as 1971 that high pressure could increase decay rates very slightly for at least 14 isotopes.([15]. H. P. Hahn et al., “Survey on the Rate Perturbation of Nuclear Decay,” Radiochimica Acta, Vol. 23, 1976, pp. 23–37.

A few decay rates increase by 0.2% at a static pressure of about 2,000 atmospheres, the pressure existing 4.3 miles below the Earth’s surface. [See G. T. Emery, “Perturbation of Nuclear Decay Rates,” Annual Review of Nuclear Science, Vol. 22, 1972, pp. 165–202.]

In another static experiment, decay rates increased by 1.0% at pressures corresponding to 930-mile depths inside the Earth. [See Lin-gun Liu and Chih-An Huh, “Effect of Pressure on the Decay Rate of 7Be,” Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Vol. 180, 2000, pp. 163–167.] Obviously, static pressures do not significantly accelerate radioactive decay.)

In the first instance a 0.2% increase corresponds to an error of 2,000,000 in 1,000,000,000, 2/1,000. In the other the increase is 1.0% corresponding to an error of 10,000,000 in 1,000,000,000, 1/100. Therefore, if a sample is dated to 1 billion years it could be as young as 998,000,000 in the first instance and 990,000,000 in the second, hardly anything to be upset about given whatever the initial margin of error. And, as the author states, “Obviously, static pressures do not significantly accelerate radioactive decay”.

You can’t quote the science as evidence of your assertion then deny the result.

Far from being rickety constructs full of sources of error and unproven assumptions, radiometric dating techniques are actually on a very sound theoretical and procedural basis. To destroy that basis, creationists would have to destroy much of chemistry and a lot of atomic physics too.
And all of that is based on 3 unverifiable assumptions.
Far from being rickety constructs full of sources of error and unproven assumptions, radiometric dating techniques are actually on a very sound theoretical and procedural basis. To destroy that basis, creationists would have to destroy much of chemistry and a lot of atomic physics too.

The periodic table is the bedrock on which modern chemistry is built. The constancy of the velocity of light is a basic axiom of Einstein’s theories of relativity, theories which have passed every test physicists could devise.
Red herring.
It’s called supporting information, much like the primer of basic chemistry in your link.

The constancy of radioactive decay rates follows from quantum mechanics, which has also passed every test physicists can create. In short, everything we know in chemistry and in physics points to radiometric dating as being a viable and valuable method of calculating the ages of igneous and metamorphosed igneous rocks.
You forgot to add "decay rates under normal circumstances..."
How many samples of rock from between 4.3 and 930 miles below the surface do you think have been tested… exactly.

There are, however, circumstances where the half-lives can be decreased by over a billionfold.
True, but only under EXTREMELY Abnormal circumstances… all of them man-made.

To charge thousands of chemists all over the world with mass incompetence also seems to be beyond the bounds of reason.
No one has done so, because it would be an ad hominem.

Rather, what has been put forth is that the dating techniques those scientists use are based on unverifiable assumptions, which skews any result they get.
… and you don’t see that this is a distinction without a difference? :liberals:

Radiometric dating has been used ever more widely for the past forty years.
This is an appeal to tradition.
No, it’s a testament to the continued reliability of radiometric dating.

The dates produced have gotten steadily more precise as lab techniques and instrumentation has been improved. There is simply no logical reason to throw this entire field of science out the window.
Because you say so?
No, because the author of the article and the science says so… despite your groundless objection(s).

There is no reason to believe the theory is faulty,
It is inherently faulty because it relies on unverifiable assumptions.
There is no reason to believe the theory is faulty.


or to believe that thousands of different chemists could be so consistently wrong in the face of every conceivable test.

Further, radiometric dates can be checked by other dating techniques.
And those dating techniques are checked by using radiometric dating.
In other words, they use circular reasoning to establish millions and billions of years.
You’ve been reading too much AIG and have been deliberately/willfully misled. Feel free to charge thousands of chemists all over the world with mass incompetence at your leasure.

When they are, the dates almost always agree within the range of expected error.
Of course they do. Except when they don't, and then they change the expected date ranges to match their results.
You’ve been reading too much AIG and have been deliberately/willfully misled. Feel free to charge thousands of chemists all over the world with mass incompetence at your leasure.

In cases where the dates don’t agree, it’s always been found that some natural factor was present which selectively affected one or the other dating method being used.

Creationists are forced to challenge radiometric dating because it stands as the most powerful and most damning evidence against their idea of a young Earth.
Because he says so?
No, because the science says so.

But in the end, they are reduced to saying that "radiometric dating must be wrong, because we know it happened this way."
Radiometric dating IS wrong, because it is based on unverifiable assumptions.
Creationists are forced to challenge radiometric dating because it stands as the most powerful and most damning evidence against their idea of a young Earth.

And that is not a scientific position. If theory says it happened this way and evidence says it happened that way, theory must be revised to fit the evidence.
The best way to determine if a theory is a good one or not is by it's predictions.

When a theory's predictions are almost always wrong, no matter how many changes are made, the theory should be discarded.
So now you agree YEC is the wrong theory? That’s good news.

Creationists won’t do that. That reveals creation ‘science’ to be a sham, and not any kind of science at all. - http://answersinscience.org/RadiometricDating-Woolf.htm
Sounds like that person just has an axe to grind.
No, but if you look in a mirror you’ll see the person with an axe to grind.

... large changes to a half-life require elaborate, expensive, high-energy equipment (e.g. particle accelerators, nuclear reactors, ion traps).
As you were just shown, no, such changes do not require such equipment.

All it takes is intense pressure.
… which, as you are now forced to agree, makes very little difference in the result.

Therefore, outside of specialized labs, we can say that as a good approximation radioactive decay half-lives don't change. For instance, carbon dating and geological radiometric dating are so accurate because decay half-lives in nature are so close to constant. - https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2015/04...al-be-changed/
Which was just shown to be incorrect.

Intense pressure can and does change half-lives.

As you yourself quoted from the page (but probably didn't bother to read thoroughly):


Under great pressure, electrons (especially from the innermost shell) are squeezed closer to the nucleus, making electron capture more likely. Also, electron capture rates for a few radioisotopes change in different chemical compounds.[16] Beta decay rates can increase dramatically when atoms are stripped of all their electrons. In 1999, Germany’s Dr. Fritz Bosch showed that, for the rhenium atom, this “decreases its half-life more than a billionfold—from 42-billion years to 33 years.”([17] The more electrons removed, the more rapidly neutrons expel electrons (beta decay) and become protons. This effect was previously unknown, because only electrically neutral atoms had been used to measure half-lives.[18]

Decay rates for silicon-32 (32Si), chlorine-36 (36Cl), manganese-54 (54Mn), and radium-226 (226Ra) depend slightly on Earth’s distance from the Sun.[19] They decay, respectively, by beta, alpha, and electron capture. Other radioisotopes are similarly affected. This may be an electrical effect or a consequence of neutrinos[20] flowing from the Sun.

Major corporations hold patents for electrical devices that on a small scale accelerate alpha, beta, and gamma decay, thereby decontaminating hazardous nuclear wastes. An interesting patent awarded to William A. Barker is described as follows:[21]

When a Van de Graaff generator generates 50,000 – 500,000 volts across radioactive material for at least 30 minutes, alpha, beta, and gamma particles sometimes escape. This large negative voltage is thought to lower each nucleus’ energy barrier.

While these electrical devices can safely decontaminate hazardous radioactive material by accelerating decay rates, they are expensive and have decontaminated only small samples. Many nuclear scientists do not understand why they work, but a few pages you will. Clearly, the common belief that decay rates are constant in all conditions is false.

As I quoted from the page (but you probably didn't bother to read AT ALL):


Decay Rates. Each radioisotope has a half-life—the time it takes for half of a large sample of that isotope to decay at today’s rate. Half-lives range from less than a billionth of a second to many millions of trillions of years.[14] Most attempts to change decay rates have failed. For example, changing temperatures from- 427°F to + 4,500°F produces no measurable change in decay rates. Nor have accelerations of up to 970,000 g, magnetic fields up to 45,000 gauss, or changing elevations or chemical concentrations.

However, we knew as far back as 1971 that high pressure could increase decay rates very slightly for at least 14 isotopes.([15]. H. P. Hahn et al., “Survey on the Rate Perturbation of Nuclear Decay,” Radiochimica Acta, Vol. 23, 1976, pp. 23–37.

A few decay rates increase by 0.2% at a static pressure of about 2,000 atmospheres, the pressure existing 4.3 miles below the Earth’s surface. [See G. T. Emery, “Perturbation of Nuclear Decay Rates,” Annual Review of Nuclear Science, Vol. 22, 1972, pp. 165–202.]

In another static experiment, decay rates increased by 1.0% at pressures corresponding to 930-mile depths inside the Earth. [See Lin-gun Liu and Chih-An Huh, “Effect of Pressure on the Decay Rate of 7Be,” Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Vol. 180, 2000, pp. 163–167.] Obviously, static pressures do not significantly accelerate radioactive decay.)


You can’t quote the science as evidence of your assertion then deny the result.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
You forgot to add "decay rates under normal circumstances..."

There are, however, circumstances where the half-lives can be decreased by over a billionfold.
When the Rhenium atoms were *fully* ionized (having no electrons at all). That's not going to happen on earth and have life survive. It might happen inside of a star or under laboratory conditions.

It makes sense when you think about atomic structure, a nucleus having no electrons at all could be more unstable than one with a full or nearly so complement of electrons - which is what one would find inside of rocks, even melted ones. But of course all of that depends on the isotope in question and Uranium, the oldest isotope used for dating the age of the earth has not been found to have such a wide variance in half life.

And even if this magically got dates to 10,000 to 4000 years as far as the age of the earth goes, there are plenty of other pieces of data that tell us the earth is old.
 

JudgeRightly

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When the Rhenium atoms were *fully* ionized (having no electrons at all). That's not going to happen on earth and have life survive.

:think:

And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. - Genesis 7:21-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:21-23&version=NKJV

I mean, they died because of the floodwaters, but the flood was concurrent with what caused the ionization... see below.

It might happen inside of a star

Cite?

or under laboratory conditions.

Or, say, if the crust of the earth were fluttering (as described in the HPT) due to the fountains of the great deep (keep in mind that nearly a quarter of the earth's crust is made of quartz...)?

Radioactive isotopes are formed all the time by lightning. (https://physicsworld.com/a/lightning-creates-radioactive-isotopes/)

Earthquake lighting (yes, lightning that occurs within the earth) is no different.

With the earth's crust being nearly 25% quartz, having it flutter (yes, like when you hold up a piece of paper edgewise to your mouth and blow), would result in a tremendous piezoelectric effect.

Long story short, this could result in most of the radioactive elements being formed during the flood inside the crust of the earth.

It makes sense when you think about atomic structure, a nucleus having no electrons at all could be more unstable than one with a full or nearly so complement of electrons - which is what one would find inside of rocks, even melted ones.

:thumb:

But of course all of that depends on the isotope in question

Of course, but if the isotope ends up anything like rhenium, with it's half-life decreasing over a billionfold, then such would easily fit within the timescale of what is described in the Bible, and certainly within the 5300 or so years since the flood.

and Uranium, the oldest isotope

This is question begging.

used for dating the age of the earth has not been found to have such a wide variance in half life.

Special pleading.

You seem to have forgotten that we're not talking about a radioactive element's normal half-life, but rather what it's half-life would be if all (or most of) the electrons were stripped away.

And even if this magically

No one here has appealed to magic, or miracles, for that matter.

got dates to 10,000 to 4000 years as far as the age of the earth goes,

Rhenium's half-life can be decreased from 43 billion years to only 33 years under pressure using Z-pinch.

33 years < 5300 years (about how long ago the flood was, give or take 100 years)

there are plenty of other pieces of data that tell us the earth is old.

Because you say so?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
With the earth's crust being nearly 25% quartz, having it flutter (yes, like when you hold up a piece of paper edgewise to your mouth and blow), would result in a tremendous piezoelectric effect.
Everything on earth would be DEAD with that kind of force to make rock "flutter" with any speed. The planet would melt. That's why *actual* plate tectonics take a long time, because fast moving rock would equal - constantly molten planet. See Jupiter's moon Io, it "only" flexes by about 300 feet due to tidal motion. What Brown's story proposes is far worse.

This is question begging.

Special pleading.
No, No. You don't get to say "Ooh Rhenium had this crazy decay rate under completely unrealistic conditions therefore ALL isotopes decay at ridiculous speed under conditions I personally think happened during a global flood, which aren't supported by science or scripture."

:doh:

You seem to have forgotten that we're not talking about a radioactive element's normal half-life, but rather what it's half-life would be if all (or most of) the electrons were stripped away.
You apparently have no idea how hard it is to strip all electrons in nature. Plus I presume the group that tested Rhenium likely tested plenty of other elements as well and didn't report huge differences. That is what made Rhenium special and reportable.

No one here has appealed to magic, or miracles, for that matter.
You've mentioned Walt Brown's ideas. They are very much in need of miracles.
 
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