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  • #31
    Originally posted by sky. View Post
    This is one case where God allowed a medium a witch to participate in what God had to say to Saul through Samuel.


    1 Samuel 28:7-8


    7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”

    And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”

    8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”


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    The difference is that what Samuel said to Saul did happen.

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    1 Samuel 28:16-19
    16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”




    1 Samuel 31: 1-6
    31Now the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell slain on Mount Gilboa. 2 Then the Philistines followed hard after Saul and his sons. And the Philistines killed Jonathan, Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul’s sons. 3 The battle became fierce against Saul. The archers hit him, and he was severely wounded by the archers.

    4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and 2abuse me.”

    But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. 5 And when his armorbearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword, and died with him. 6 So Saul, his three sons, his armorbearer, and all his men died together that same day.

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    You would be hard pressed to find another example in Scripture but the difference is that what the spirit of Samuel said did happen. God allowed the spirit of Samuel to communicate with Saul.
    Whether what Samuel said to Saul came true or not has nothing to do with the OP. The fact is that Samuel was conjured and he communicated with Saul. Nothing you posted negates that or negates God's command. Why would God command us not to conjure spirits/ghosts if it could not be done?
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    • #32
      Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
      Why would God command us not to conjure spirits/ghosts if it could not be done?


      A good reason that God commands us not to conjure spirits is because demons like to disguise themselves and it shows we are trusting in something other than God by doing it and also being disobedient to God.

      Since now we are already judged as believers - having passed already from death to life, we arent in abrahams bosom when we die awaiting the final judgment. To be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.
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      • #33
        A ghost would be a dis-incarnate spirit that can manifest and make itself known in the material world. Anyone who accepts the truth of the Bible must accept that Satan can do exactly that. Matthew 4:1-11

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
          Samuel was in Abrahams bosom, Christ emptied it. The only "spiritual" entities around the living now are either angelic or demonic.
          Regardless, Samuel was conjured for a chit chat.
          The one time that Abraham's bosom is mentioned is by Yeshua in Luke 16:22 and that's not in all translations. Other translations have it as "Abraham's side". There is no Scriptural proof text that Yeshua "emptied Abraham's bosom." That's a doctrine based upon the belief that there was a holding place (pergatory as Catholics call it) and no one entered heaven prior to Yeshua's death. Scripture proves this wrong.

          In regard to the angelic or demonic, I would say that the demonic are fallen angels so perhaps it would be more correct to state that spirits are either Godly or not.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
            Regardless, Samuel was conjured for a chit chat.
            The one time that Abraham's bosom is mentioned is by Yeshua in Luke 16:22 and that's not in all translations. Other translations have it as "Abraham's side". There is no Scriptural proof text that Yeshua "emptied Abraham's bosom." That's a doctrine based upon the belief that there was a holding place (pergatory as Catholics call it) and no one entered heaven prior to Yeshua's death. Scripture proves this wrong.

            In regard to the angelic or demonic, I would say that the demonic are fallen angels so perhaps it would be more correct to state that spirits are either Godly or not.

            Actually Christ is shown in the scriptures having preached to the souls in prison before He ascended into heaven. Its not based on any Catholic teaching and its also in scripture that when we are absent in body we are present with the Lord.

            Tell me, if we have been judged already, why there would be a need for us to wait the final judgment since that is what part of that waiting place was for.

            Show me where scripture tells us there are ghosts of people who have died roaming the earth.
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            • #36
              Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
              A good reason that God commands us not to conjure spirits is because demons like to disguise themselves and it shows we are trusting in something other than God by doing it
              Agreed but that does not negate the fact that ghosts/spirits exist.

              Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
              and also being disobedient to God.
              You do realize that is disobedience to OT Law and if one must be obedient to that, then why wouldn't one be obedient to God's Law regarding keeping the Sabbath holy? Not to mix one thread with another but I'm sure you can understand my confusion regarding your position on the Sabbath as opposed to your position regarding conjuring as outlined in Deuteronomy. I mean really, Angel!

              Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
              Since now we are already judged as believers - having passed already from death to life, we arent in abrahams bosom when we die awaiting the final judgment. To be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.
              No one was in Abraham's bosom according to Scripture unless one reads the KJV and translations in its lineage. That's Talmudic teaching that carried into Catholicism.
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              • #37
                Perhaps I should have been clear that I do not believe in spirits of any sort. No ghosts. No angels. No demons.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                  Actually Christ is shown in the scriptures having preached to the souls in prison before He ascended into heaven. Its not based on any Catholic teaching and its also in scripture that when we are absent in body we are present with the Lord.

                  Tell me, if we have been judged already, why there would be a need for us to wait the final judgment since that is what part of that waiting place was for.

                  Show me where scripture tells us there are ghosts of people who have died roaming the earth.
                  It's widely accepted that the souls in prison Yeshua preached to were demons, not folks in Abraham's bosom, hence the words "he descended into hell" from the Apostle's Creed of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

                  I too believe that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord...at least for a time.

                  I never made any claim to ghosts/spirits roaming the earth. God's command to not conjure spirits and John's instruction to test the spirits does and I already posted that Scripture.
                  http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...3&postcount=16
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                    It's widely accepted that the souls in prison Yeshua preached to were demons, not folks in Abraham's bosom, hence the words "he descended into hell" from the Apostle's Creed of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
                    Widely accepted? I've never even heard that suggested. Rather, it's better known that no one preceded Christ into heaven so the OT saints and all those who died prior to the cross were kept somewhere. The word "hell" is quite generic, and in the Hebrew and Greek it's known as Hades, Gehenna, and Sheol. Jesus explains it quite well in Luke 16 and the great gulf that separates the righteous from the unrighteous...Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) is very appropriate.

                    It comes from several verses including Jesus telling the thief he would be with him in Paradise that day. Paul talks of the lower parts of the earth, and Matthew calls it the "heart of the earth."

                    Ephesians 4:9
                    (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


                    Matthew 12:40
                    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                    Peter addresses it here...

                    1 Peter 3:18-20
                    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

                    Since the cross, we go immediately to be with the Lord.

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                    • #40
                      As a matter of faith I believe in the church triumphant and the chuch suffering as neither of these groups of people are alive I therefore believe in Ghosts. That being said I am posting from a 163 year old psychiatric hospital where I work on the night shift. There ought to be a lot of ghosts here but I have not experienced any that I am totally convinced of.

                      There is a lot of spooky stuff. The place is heated and cooled by fluids and steam generated at a power house and the circulating pipes have "knocks" caused by trapped air bubbles. These can be very loud. All the windows are barred on the outside and even a light wind can can make the building moan. It is an old building and has its share of resident wildlife. I have met bats in the hallways, little brown bats and the larger silver backed bats, both species common to this area.

                      There are certain rooms which have a reputation amoung the more impressionable members of the staff as poor places to take a nap. I have tried to take a nap in one of these and it was indeed creepy experience but just because I was restless and uncomfortable, not because I saw or heard anything.

                      And then there my one visual experience. I was in an office with my feet up and "in a state of reduced alertness". Suddenly a man came through the open door in a rush, He was balding, portly, wearing a light grey pinstriped swallow tail coat and green and yellow tattersal checked waitcoat, plain grey trousers and spats. He had a distinctively trimed beard. I recognized him as a former medical director of the facility. From the late 18 hundreds. He seems surprised to see me, and then was gone.

                      I do not think I saw a ghost . I think what I experienced was a "hypnogogic hallucination" that is a hallucination at the edge of sleep. Basicly a misfiring of the dream process. But wow!
                      "Not everything that is clever, is true."

                      - - St Ephiram of Syria - -

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Knight View Post
                        The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 20th, 2013 09:05 AM


                        toldailytopic: Do you believe in ghosts?


                        Well, we might be in good company if we did.

                        Matthew 14:26
                        And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

                        Luke 24:37-39
                        But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


                        There was a time I would have scoffed at the very suggestion, but I have to admit there are things in the spiritual realm that are beyond my understanding.

                        I saw what sure looked like a ghost several years back. Bear in mind, I was a firm believer there was no such thing. But, I was a renting a house with a large loft bedroom with another small room adjoining it. The small room had a sweet little window seat where I would sit and read or do crossword puzzles. One morning, I awoke early and decided to go through into the small room, and saw my daughter, or so I thought, stooped over as if rising from the chair. Her long hair hung down covering her face. I had to make a little jag to get around a closet and when I entered I didn't see her. I laughed and called her name thinking she was playing a trick on her poor old mom....looked under and behind an old hospital bed that was there....then I looked in the closet calling her name. No one was there, and there was no way anyone could have gotten out. I was spooked. My daughter was down in her bed sleeping. We also heard someone walking up there once when we were downstairs.

                        Later, I was talking to my landlord about dismantling that old hospital bed and having her remove some old clothes (women's dresses) that had been left hanging in the closet when we moved in. She told me an old lady had died up there during the time her cranker son and his cronies moved in on her. They had to remove two truckloads of garbage from the house before we moved in.

                        So, I still don't really believe in ghosts, but I did see a stooped over woman with long hair and I've never had any other sorts of visions at any time in entire life.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Knight View Post
                          toldailytopic: Do you believe in ghosts?
                          Not according to the typical definition.

                          But I do believe there is something going on; I just don't know what it really is.

                          And I've apparently had some experiences, or so I've been told; I don't recall them.
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                            Not according to the typical definition.

                            But I do believe there is something going on; I just don't know what it really is.

                            And I've apparently had some experiences, or so I've been told; I don't recall them.
                            Now you've piqued my curiosity.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                              Now you've piqued my curiosity.
                              Thank you for using the correct "piqued." I get so frustrated when I see people use "peaked," for this purpose.

                              Now, as to you curiosity I am afraid I cannot explain as I do not recall the incident.

                              All I know is that I was with my dad at his friend's house and I went upstairs to use the rest room. When I came back down I asked him why he hadn't told me her house was haunted. That is what I have been told happened. So there were no witnesses to what I experienced that led to my question. My dad doesn't remember it either. His friend is the only one who remembers me asking.
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                                Whether what Samuel said to Saul came true or not has nothing to do with the OP. The fact is that Samuel was conjured and he communicated with Saul. Nothing you posted negates that or negates God's command. Why would God command us not to conjure spirits/ghosts if it could not be done?
                                You're the one who brought up Saul and Samuel so if it had nothing to do with the OP it's your fault. I felt that it needed to be addressed because it is an incident where God allowed a witch to participate to deliver a message to Saul. I don't think you will find another one in Scripture but if you are willing to run rampant with the idea that it should become a wide spread practice free from consequences then go for it. You obviously think its just fine. I know why it's not supposed to be done. If you don't know then look it up.

                                You're the one who challenged me to address it, you're the one who brought it up with no explanation as to why it was done and why God allowed it in that ONE case. So you better figure it out instead of throwing it out there and then acting like you have a legitimate question.

                                Why would God command us not to conjure spirits/ghosts if it could not be done?
                                God can do it a witch can't, got it?
                                Last edited by sky.; May 21st, 2013, 05:14 AM.

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