During the ministry of Christ their faith required obedience in works of righteousness and you profess the same faith as they but leave out the obedience required and defend it vigorously. Give me the text penned before the cross where one believed the gospel of the grace of God without works.
ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?
- Thread starter iamaberean
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During the ministry of Christ their faith required obedience in works of righteousness and you profess the same faith as they but leave out the obedience required and defend it vigorously. Give me the text penned before the cross where one believed the gospel of the grace of God without works.
Right Divider
Body part
Since what you ask for was not revealed until God gave it to Paul.... it's NOT in the other scripture.
It's just that simple.
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I ask why your faith is not obedience. There's a difference. Here's the quote...."Jerry, briefly explain to me, in your own words if you will, how you are saved by your faith and how your faith is not obedience."
You're not being honest again.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The gospel of grace was not made known before the Apostle Paul so no one believed that gospel before the Cross.
If during Christ's ministry their faith required obedience in works of righteousness then why did the Lord Jesus tell them the following (which makes no mention of works):
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
way 2 go
Well-known member
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
I have seen 3 ways of looking at this verse
1. "I say to you today" is when Jesus said that but didn't mean it would happen that day
denies the existence of the mans eternal spirit
2. the place with captives beside hell is paradise Eph 4:8 Luk 16:22,23
3. paradise is up in heaven & that is where the criminal went that day. 2Co 12:3,4 Rev 2:7
I'm choosing 3
:nono:
here is why he didn't say it the way you think he had to
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Jesus did not say "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to paradise" which is certainly what He would have said if that was the case.
Jesus didn't call Abraham's side paradise because paradise is up & not beside hell 2Co 12:3,4
's benifit
If it was not made know before how did they before the cross acquire it's benefit? What was the benefit of the gospel of the grace of God that those before it did not have or was there no benefit at all from it?
Stop right there for a moment. Was Christ water baptized and at Pentecost the apostles instructed the believers to be water baptized for remission of sins or explain how water baptism was not a required righteous work for remission to access the kingdom? Where the apostles wrong or how is it that their faith did not require obedience? It is after all the faith of that time that you hold to and defend as righteousness without works.
If it was not made know before how did they before the cross acquire it's benefit? What was the benefit of the gospel of the grace of God that those before it did not have or was there no benefit at all from it?
Stop right there for a moment. Was Christ water baptized and at Pentecost the apostles instructed the believers to be water baptized for remission of sins or explain how water baptism was not a required righteous work for remission to access the kingdom? Where the apostles wrong or how is it that their faith did not require obedience? It is after all the faith of that time that you hold to and defend as righteousness without works.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
They acquired the benefit in the following way:
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).
So are you trying to prove that the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law?:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
You continue to fail to address these words of the Lord Jesus and instead try to prove that what He said was in error. The fact of the matter is that before a person could be baptized with water he had to first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).
Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).
There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.
Now before we move on to the purpose of the remission of sins in regard to the rite of water baptism it is your turn to actually address the words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke to the Jews who lived under the law as well as the fact that the eunuch was born of God before a drop of water ever touched him.
How fun it must be to simply choose to read the bible according to your doctrine.
So do you also believe that God the Father died on the cross?
Who was it that was forsaking Jesus in Matthew 27:46? Did Jesus forsake Himself?
I know that answer to these questions, they are primarily rhetorical but you can answer if you like. The point is that the Trinity doctrine isn't there to make it easy for you to have whatever doctrine you want concerning the location of paradise. You don't know anything more and probably a lot less about the triune nature of God than you know about the location of paradise. And so you're sort of making my point for me. That point being that there isn't enough information in the bible to make dogmatic assertions about where Jesus was during His three days in the grave. You're doctrine is exactly nothing more than an arbitrary choice of "how to read a verse". A choice, by the way, that was made to defend a doctrine that you held before making that choice (Begging the Question Fallacy). And then to top it off you make the flimsiest of applications of the Trinity doctrine, again done to prop up an a priori doctrinal proposition, which I smashed into powder with two third grade level questions that should have occurred to you before you even typed up your post.
This is your doctrine! It is not an argument!
You make a nice effort to play against my use of words but that doesn't hold water and I think you knew that when you typed it. If Abraham's Bosom and Paradise are synonymous then there is no reason to think that He should have called it one name over the other. In other words, while there is good reason to believe that "Abraham's Bosom" and "Paradise" are just two different names for the same place, "Jesus" and "God the Father" are not likewise synonyms! God the Father is NOT the same person as God the Son. Jesus, God the Son, was begotten of the Father and then sent and later forsaken by the Father. Jesus did not beget Himself nor did He send or forsake Himself. Yes, there is an important sense in which Jesus and the Father are One along with the Spirit but that doesn't mean that the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are synonyms as your comments above would suggest and as a big chunk of your argument is predicated on.
Now, I think we're done here. We've gone around in circles on this long enough and it just isn't important enough of an issue to go on and on forever about.
I've made an argument, you're not convinced, so be it.
Clete
I said several posts ago that [MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION] takes individual verses and uses them to turn whole sections of the bible up side down and I said that he does that "perhaps more than any person I've ever experienced" (or something along those lines).
I was so totally wrong!
Jerry has him beat hands down!
I was so totally wrong!
Jerry has him beat hands down!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This from the big talker who is so spiritually blind he cannot even understand the following simple words spoken by the Lord Jesus to the Jews who lived under the law:
"
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Clete remains spiritually blind and his spiritual I.Q is a big fat zero!
Passages of scripture that Jerry must explain away (in no particular order)....
Now of course that's not nearly all I could quote. That's just a list I found in a particularly terrific book by my favorite author. In addition to these, one could quote the entire Pentateuch, dozens of the Psalms and Proverbs, a large percentage of the Prophets, several passages from Peter's and John's epistles, the entire book of Revelation and the entirety of the four gospels minus the three sentences that Jerry has built his entire theological world view upon.
As I said before, Jerry has to explain away the entire bible so as to cling to three sentences that are bereft of their context! It is the most astounding example of proof-texting lunacy that I have ever seen - bar none!
Clete
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Deuteronomy 6:25 Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’
John 15:2a Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
James 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Ezekiel 20:3 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
James 2: 20 & 26 ...faith without works is dead
Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
1 Timothy 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Deuteronomy 6:25 Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’
John 15:2a Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
James 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Ezekiel 20:3 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
James 2: 20 & 26 ...faith without works is dead
Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
1 Timothy 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Now of course that's not nearly all I could quote. That's just a list I found in a particularly terrific book by my favorite author. In addition to these, one could quote the entire Pentateuch, dozens of the Psalms and Proverbs, a large percentage of the Prophets, several passages from Peter's and John's epistles, the entire book of Revelation and the entirety of the four gospels minus the three sentences that Jerry has built his entire theological world view upon.
As I said before, Jerry has to explain away the entire bible so as to cling to three sentences that are bereft of their context! It is the most astounding example of proof-texting lunacy that I have ever seen - bar none!
Clete
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way 2 go
Well-known member
God died on the cross.
don't you believe Jesus is God ?
no .
still only one God .
do you believe in multiple gods ?
I know the location of paradise by where the bible says it is you are the one contradicting the bibles
clear verses on it's location.2Co 12:3,4 Rev 2:7
up
you are right there is not much information on where Jesus went for the 3 days or the next 40 .
we Know where God is & was ,paradise.
the criminal went to paradise to be with God.
the only thing you have said is "with me" can only mean
Jesus & you have asserted without evidence that it can't mean "with God"
Joh 10:30 Joh 14:9
nothing in the bible says Abraham's side is paradise .we do have the bible saying paradise is up
& Abraham's side is down
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I'll tell you what big shot, I will give you my interpretation of the meaning of this verse and then in return share your wisdom with us and give us your interpretation of the verse which I choose.
What is the will of the Father?:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (Jn.6:39).
Of course you cannot understand spiritual things so you can't know what the will of the Father is. Nonetheless, I gave you my interpretation of the meaning of Matthew 7:21 so now give us your interpretation of the meaning of the following words spoken by the Lord Jesus and addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Sorry, but I must have missed something.
Where did you explain the verse Clete quoted? Could you highlight it?
Because all I'm seeing is you asking a question, then quoting two other verses, which isn't an explanation at all...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is one of the verses which Clete wants me to address:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
What I did was to quote two different verses where the Lord Jesus tells us exactly what the Father's will is:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (Jn.6:39).
The Father's will is that the Jews who the Lord Jesus was addressing would believe on the Christ and those who did that would receive everlasting life and be resurrected at the last day.
In other words, those who believed in the Lord Jesus would receive everlasting life apart from works. And that matches perefectly with what the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
The Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to a Jewish woman who lived under the law:
"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).
We are done.
Thank you for proving my point! That was way easier to bait you into than I expected!
Why stop with just one, though? Please, by all means, tells us how all the rest of those verses don't mean what they say!
Talk about missing the point...