ECT What's MAD?

[vfirestormv]

We tried. Heir was very patient with you - she's probably the most patient MAD on this board - but you threw it all back in her face so she gave up.

I will say this...one of the final big hangups I had about MAD was with dating the NT epistles. I bought into the tradition that the circumcision epistles and Revelation were written late. I remember asking Ivan Burgener about Peter's letters 10 years ago at a BBF conference. The answer to my objection was that the opinions - and that's exactly what they come down to - on dates are not set in stone. I now believe, based on the content of the letters, that the circumcision epistles were written relatively early. That has them fit much more sensibly in the overall scheme of the N.T.

But I know you'll reject that possibility. So did I, once upon a time.

So John was on the isle of Patmos early? Man you really are just lying to yourself to make yourself believe this doctrine aren't you?
And none of you, not one has ever answered those questions which I posted, except to say that they were saved by obeying.

The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ has been taught even throughout the creation week. There is not a book in the Bible that does not have at least hints to the then veiled Christ. Same gospel forever.

 

[csuguy]

We tried. Heir was very patient with you - she's probably the most patient MAD on this board - but you threw it all back in her face so she gave up.

I've also tried to get straight answers out of MAD proponents on this board before - it is quite impossible. They start out ok - but if you disagree at any point and want them to discuss the matter in detail they throw their hands up in the air.

 

[musterion]

I've also tried to get straight answers out of MAD proponents on this board before - it is quite impossible. They start out ok - but if you disagree at any point and want them to discuss the matter in detail they throw their hands up in the air.

When someone keeps asking the same question over and over, after we've answered it as best we can, that's not our fault.

Pick one question you feel you've never gotten a straight answer to and I'll try to answer it.

 

[musterion]

The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ has been taught even throughout the creation week.

You made this claim before and someone asked this question but you never answered it:

Show someone putting his faith specifically in the good news of Christ's death, burial and resurrection for his sin before the salvation of Paul.

 

[vfirestormv]

You made this claim before and someone asked this question but you never answered it:

Show someone putting his faith specifically in the good news of Christ's death, burial and resurrection for his sin before the salvation of Paul.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

For starters.

 

[vfirestormv]

You made this claim before and someone asked this question but you never answered it:

Show someone putting his faith specifically in the good news of Christ's death, burial and resurrection for his sin before the salvation of Paul.

Abel with his offering, Abraham when he offered Isaac up, believing that God who had promised could raise him back from the dead, Abraham when he offered the ram instead of Isaac, All Israel when they killed the innocent lamb and applied it's blood to the doorposts, the many sacrifices made throughout Israel's history all show the gospel of Christ. Just veiled then. They believed God.

They sure didn't obey the law, now did they?
If so could you point me to that verse?

 

[musterion]

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

For starters.

1. Where is your evidence Moses knew of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, much less trusted in it?

2. What was "the reproach of Christ" for Moses? What was "the recompense of the reward" Moses looked forward to?

 

[csuguy]

When someone keeps asking the same question over and over, after we've answered it as best we can, that's not our fault.

Pick one question you feel you've never gotten a straight answer to and I'll try to answer it.

I don't have anything particular in mind at this point in time; its been quite some time (a few years) since I last attempted to get MAD proponents to seriously layout and discuss their beliefs. Unfortunately they decided to take the attitude that I should just accept whatever they put forth without question. Attempts to have them clarify and defend their position just resulted in them shutting down and telling me to go study more.

At any rate, I've read enough of the positions put forth by MAD proponents on here to know that it is unbiblical. They reject the disciples - those hand picked by Christ to carry on his ministry. They introduce a new Gospel - though scripture teaches nothing of the sort. They treat gentiles as if they had a separate set of promises/covenant than Israel - but Paul notes that gentiles were grafted onto Israel, thereby partaking of the promises and the New Covenant established with them. etc.

If you are interested in debating these kinds of points - that could be interesting.

 

[musterion]

This is why people shut you off; you're too ignorant of what we actually believe to ask intelligent questions (preferring instead to TELL us what we believe), or are deliberately misrepesenting it, in which case you're a liar. See:

They reject the disciples - those hand picked by Christ to carry on his ministry.

Whatever you think "reject them" means, we do not "reject" them.

They introduce a new Gospel - though scripture teaches nothing of the sort.

We introduce nothing. We just take Paul at his word.

They treat gentiles as if they had a separate set of promises/covenant than Israel - but Paul notes that gentiles were grafted onto Israel, thereby partaking of the promises and the New Covenant established with them. etc.

The Body of Christ - comprised of BOTH Jews and Gentiles in Christ - is an entity separate from covenant Israel. It has a separate identity, destiny and rewards from covenant Israel's. God made no covenant with Gentiles, and Gentiles in the Body of Christ don't need one; they belong to Christ, and Christ is God's

 

[csuguy]

This is why people shut you off; you're too ignorant of what we actually believe, or are deliberately misrepesenting it, in which case you're a liar. See:

Whatever you think "reject them" means, we do not "reject" them.

Then you accept James 2 as applicable to Christians today? Or how about the other numerous passages, such as in Matthew, that tell us that we are required to do God's will to be saved? (Matthew 7)

We introduce nothing. We just take Paul at his word.

In your interpretation of Paul you introduce concepts that he doesn't teach - like this idea that Paul introduced a new Gospel separate from what the disciples were given.

1 Cor 1:10-17 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all [e]agree and that there be no [f]divisions among you, but that you be [g]made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 [h]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 [j]I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized [k]in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in [l]cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.​

The Body of Christ - comprised of BOTH Jews and Gentiles in Christ - is an entity separate from covenant Israel. It has a separate identity, destiny and rewards from covenant Israel's. God made no covenant with Gentiles, and Gentiles in the Body of Christ don't need one; they belong to Christ, and Christ is God's

If you accepted what Paul teaches then you would know the above is false - the New Covenant is what was promised to Israel. Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant for they have been grafted onto Israel. See Romans 11.

 

[musterion]

Then you accept James 2 as applicable to Christians today? Or how about the other numerous passages, such as in Matthew, that tell us that we are required to do God's will to be saved? (Matthew 7)

You said reject THEM, the men, as if we dispute their apostleship. We do not.

We do deny their teaching was intended for the Body of Christ, for and to whom Paul was chosen to speak. Their teachings are still centered on redeemed Jews (James 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; cf Gal 2:8-10), with Gentiles seen as "other" (1 Peter 2:12).

Galatians 2:8-10:

(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

And that's exactly what the general epistles reflect.

In your interpretation of Paul you introduce concepts that he doesn't teach - like this idea of another Gospel.

1 Cor 1:10-17 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all [e]agree and that there be no [f]divisions among you, but that you be [g]made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 [h]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 [j]I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized [k]in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in [l]cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.​

Paul lays claim to what he called "my Gospel," which is the preaching of Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25), which only Paul received. Not Peter, James or John, just Paul. They learned of it from him and Peter admitted there's some deep truths there (2 Peter 3:15).

If you accepted what Paul teaches then you would know the above is false - the New Covenant is what was promised to Israel. Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant for they have been grafted onto Israel. See Romans 11.

The Body of Christ was grafted onto nothing - it was and is an entirely new entity that was previously unrevealed in Scripture and hidden in the mind and heart of God.

 

[csuguy]

You said reject THEM, the men, as if we dispute their apostleship. We do not.

We do deny their teaching was intended for the Body of Christ, for and to whom Paul was chosen to speak. Their teachings are still centered on redeemed Jews (James 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; cf Gal 2:8-10), with Gentiles seen as "other" (1 Peter 2:12).

Galatians 2:8-10:



And that's exactly what the general epistles reflect.

I said reject as in you don't accept them as applicable to you. You effectively reject the very teachings of Christ, instead accepting only Paul's teachings (though in reality he teaches the same Gospel).

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ. Paul notes this in several of his works, as did the disciples (see Acts 15). You are erroneous to introduce a division between Jew and Gentile both based upon what Paul teaches and what the disciples taught.

Paul lays claim to what he called "my Gospel," which is the preaching of Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25), which only Paul received. Not Peter, James or John, just Paul. They learned of it from him and Peter admitted there's some deep truths there (2 Peter 3:15).

There is no indication that "my Gospel" was any different from the Gospel that was given to the disciples.

And when that passage talks of revelation - he isn't speaking of what he received on the road to Damascus. He is referring generally to the mystery of Christ which was revealed to the disciples as well. Indeed - he says the mystery has been made known to all nations.

Furthermore, there is never any point in the scriptures where Paul's Gospel is differentiated from the Gospel of Christ given to the disciples. Rather, as the passage I provided demonstrates (1 Cor 1), Paul considered himself just one of many people spreading the Gospel. He asks: has Christ been divided? Of course not! Yet that is precisely what MAD proposes.

The Body of Christ was grafted onto nothing - it was and is an entirely new entity that was previously hid in the mind and heart of God.

You are ignoring Paul - who you supposedly take at his word. Paul clearly teaches that the gentiles were grafted onto Israel.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You said reject THEM, the men, as if we dispute their apostleship. We do not.

We do deny their teaching was intended for the Body of Christ, for and to whom Paul was chosen to speak. Their teachings are still centered on redeemed Jews (James 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; cf Gal 2:8-10), with Gentiles seen as "other" (1 Peter 2:12).

Galatians 2:8-10:

And that's exactly what the general epistles reflect.


Paul lays claim to what he called "my Gospel," which is the preaching of Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25), which only Paul received. Not Peter, James or John, just Paul. They learned of it from him and Peter admitted there's some deep truths there (2 Peter 3:15).

The Body of Christ was grafted onto nothing - it was and is an entirely new entity that was previously unrevealed in Scripture and hidden in the mind and heart of God.

EXCELLENT!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I said reject as in you don't accept them as applicable to you. You effectively reject the very teachings of Christ, instead accepting only Paul's teachings (though in reality he teaches the same Gospel).

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ. Paul notes this in several of his works, as did the disciples (see Acts 15). You are erroneous to introduce a division between Jew and Gentile both based upon what Paul teaches and what the disciples taught.



There is no indication that "my Gospel" was any different from the Gospel that was given to the disciples.

And when that passage talks of revelation - he isn't speaking of what he received on the road to Damascus. He is referring generally to the mystery of Christ which was revealed to the disciples as well. Indeed - he says the mystery has been made known to all nations.

Furthermore, there is never any point in the scriptures where Paul's Gospel is differentiated from the Gospel of Christ given to the disciples. Rather, as the passage I provided demonstrates (1 Cor 1), Paul considered himself just one of many people spreading the Gospel. He asks: has Christ been divided? Of course not! Yet that is precisely what MAD proposes.



You are ignoring Paul - who you supposedly take at his word. Paul clearly teaches that the gentiles were grafted onto Israel.

You don't seem to have a "clear understanding" of truth? It's
probably because you don't know how to "Rightly Divide the
Word?"

 

[csuguy]

You don't seem to have a "clear understanding" of truth? It's
probably because you don't know how to "Rightly Divide the
Word?"

You reject any scriptures that disagree with your position - even should they come from Paul, whose Gospel you claim to follow - and thus have lost any merit when it comes to exegesis. You are only concerned with upholding your pre-conceived ideas vs studying the scriptures.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You reject any scriptures that disagree with your position - even should they come from Paul, whose Gospel you claim to follow - and thus have lost any merit when it comes to exegesis. You are only concerned with upholding your pre-conceived ideas vs studying the scriptures.

Did you purchase that hat from Meshak?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Csuguy, if you think you can "earn" your way to Heaven, give it a shot?
However, we're here to tell you different but, I doubt you'll listen?

 

[musterion]

I said reject as in you don't accept them as applicable to you. You effectively reject the very teachings of Christ, instead accepting only Paul's teachings (though in reality he teaches the same Gospel).

In His incarnation ("in the flesh"), He was sent to none but the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). We cannot know Him in His capacity of Israel's Messiah (2 Cor 5:16), but only through the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:8-9).

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ.

Yes, NOW there is no difference! TODAY there is no difference, and thank God for it! Your problem is, up to and past Acts ch. 10, the wall was still up in the minds of Messianic Jews. Peter was reluctant to even darken a dog Gentile's door (Acts 10:28). Believing Jews were telling only other Jews about Messiah (Acts 11:19). Peter and the rest hadn't yet been told there was no longer a difference between Jews and Gentiles...that means they knew nothing, yet, of the Body of Christ. That knowledge came to them through Paul.

Paul notes this in several of his works, as did the disciples (see Acts 15). You are erroneous to introduce a division between Jew and Gentile both based upon what Paul teaches and what the disciples taught.

Addressed above.

There is no indication that "my Gospel" was any different from the Gospel that was given to the disciples.

The core of Paul's "my gospel" is Christ and Him crucified for the sins of the world, without distinction. If you can find Peter preaching that at Pentecost, you'll have a point.

And when that passage talks of revelation - he isn't speaking of what he received on the road to Damascus. He is referring generally to the mystery of Christ which was revealed to the disciples as well. Indeed - he says the mystery has been made known to all nations.

It was not made known to the disciples before it was revealed to Paul. It was made known to them TO and THROUGH Paul (Gal 1:11-12).

Furthermore, there is never any point in the scriptures where Paul's Gospel is differentiated from the Gospel of Christ given to the disciples.

Yes there is, in Galatians 2.

You are ignoring Paul - who you supposedly take at his word. Paul clearly teaches that the gentiles were grafted onto Israel.

The Body of Christ is grafted onto nothing. It is its own entity, complete in Christ, untied from covenant Israel.

 

[csuguy]

Csuguy, if you think you can "earn" your way to Heaven, give it a shot?
However, we're here to tell you different but, I doubt you'll listen?

I never said one earns there way to heaven - to the contrary I clarified my views on the matter in the other thread. Works, in of themselves, cannot redeem us. We need Christ.

It is through Christ that we are redeemed. Christ died for all that all might be saved. Yet not all will be saved. Why? Because there are requirements on our end to receive the gift that we cannot possibly earn: we must devote our life to doing God's will, helping those in need, and keeping ourselves pure.

Luke 9:24 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.​

 

[musterion]

I never said one earns there way to heaven

You are a liar or you don't know what you believe. You admitted a few days ago that you are saved by your own perseverance in faith.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4152748&postcount=136