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  • Silent Hunter
    replied
    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    Jer 23:5-6 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the LORD our righteousness.
    You need a reality check or, at the minimum, an update about what happened to Jesus according to "scripture". While a "king in waiting" Jesus never reigned as king of the Jews nor did he "prosper and execute judgement and justice" on anyone. Judah fell even deeper in difficulty with Rome and, as far as anyone knows, now exists in name only.

    The bottom line is this is one of the biblical "prophecies" yet to be fulfilled, Nostrodamus has a better track record.

    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    Jesus is the LORD, per scripture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Right Divider
    replied
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    No. And I say that because the Scriptures teach that Jesus became the son of God by being born of a woman in the weakness of the flesh. He then is declared to be the son of God in power by being born from the dead to die no more.
    So you think that Jesus "became the Son of God" at the same time that God became "the Father"?

    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Luke 1:32

    28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:28-34
    Jer 23:5-6 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Jesus is the LORD.

    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    Jesus was first born by being generated of the seed of David his father according to the flesh. That which is born of flesh is flesh. Jesus is then declared to be son of God in power(immortal) by being born of the spirit. As it says also in Hebrews, by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit) by his resurrection (birth) from the dead. Jesus is therefore the firstborn from the dead.
    "being generated from the see of David"? What in the world do you mean by that?

    Jesus is the LORD, per scripture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vail Lifted
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Still not answering my question

    Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?
    No. And I say that because the Scriptures teach that Jesus became the son of God by being born of a woman in the weakness of the flesh. He then is declared to be the son of God in power by being born from the dead to die no more.

    "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Luke 1:32

    28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:28-34

    Jesus was first born by being generated of the seed of David his father according to the flesh. That which is born of flesh is flesh. Jesus is then declared to be son of God in power(immortal) by being born of the spirit. As it says also in Hebrews, by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit) by his resurrection (birth) from the dead. Jesus is therefore the firstborn from the dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma,
    Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
    This isn’t “my view”, whether you accept it or not (and of course you won’t, because you’ve imbibed false doctrine in total ignorance from your indoctrination); this is the authentic Christian faith according to the divinely inspired text. It has NEVER been validly in question in the two millennia of the Christian faith.

    You MUST learn the Trinity doctrine for what it is before you can begin any attempt to refute any aspect of it. All your assertions are barely even strawmen. Total caricatures.

    You aren’t even genuine enough to have the charity of learning the Trinity doctrine for what it both IS and ISN’T. You have sacrificed every shred of credibility by mirepresenting Theology Proper. You obviously don’t even know how badly you have contorted and perveted something you know nothing of. It’s truly pitiful. You should at least care about that.
    I have learnt sufficiently of the “Trinity” to avoid going any further. I find your responses interesting, but not much Scriptural substance. You seem to withdraw into your intellectual studies on obscure historical church documents and reasoning. For example from your earlier Post:
    So all you’ve done is indicate that you don’t know the difference between an ousia and an hypostasis, and that you don’t have any idea how the Patristics utilized these terms according to Apostolic influence to determine the minutiae of the Trinity doctrine.
    You are correct, and I do not want to go down that path.
    Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
    Seriously? Sigh.
    And I am fairly certain that you would like to avoid Psalm 110:1 and the quotations and application of this in the NT by Christ and the Apostles because it is a clear testimony against the teaching of the Trinity. And you question why I do not want to travel down the path of your obscure Church fathers and their philosophic and unscriptural teachings.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Leave a comment:


  • PneumaPsucheSoma
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again 7djengo7, From my 1968 print copy of Webster’s: being, n. 1. Existence, state of existing. 2. A human creature, living person; Deity: the Supreme Being.
    Thus humans exist and are beings, and God the Father exists and is a Being and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God exists and is a Being, and he is a separate Being from God His Father. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God, two Beings in heaven Psalm 110:1.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Seriously? Sigh.

    Leave a comment:


  • PneumaPsucheSoma
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma and JudgeRightly, I appreciate your long Post which I have abbreviated above. Yes I cannot accept your view, but believe that Jesus was a human, conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus born the Son of God Luke 1:35. He did not have two natures and did not exist before he was born. As a child he grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52 and as such he did not have two minds.
    Refer my answer as above. The narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2 clearly teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    This isn’t “my view”, whether you accept it or not (and of course you won’t, because you’ve imbibed false doctrine in total ignorance from your indoctrination); this is the authentic Christian faith according to the divinely inspired text. It has NEVER been validly in question in the two millennia of the Christian faith.

    You MUST learn the Trinity doctrine for what it is before you can begin any attempt to refute any aspect of it. All your assertions are barely even strawmen. Total caricatures.

    You aren’t even genuine enough to have the charity of learning the Trinity doctrine for what it both IS and ISN’T. You have sacrificed every shred of credibility by mirepresenting Theology Proper. You obviously don’t even know how badly you have contorted and perveted something you know nothing of. It’s truly pitiful. You should at least care about that.

    What’s the name of your cult? Will you ever answer?

    Leave a comment:


  • PneumaPsucheSoma
    replied
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    The Father was never born or made of a woman.
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    The Father doesn't have a God. Jesus does. When Jesus was born and made of a woman his Father became both his Father and his God.
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    I answered your question by saying that the Father became both Jesus' Father and his God when Jesus was born of a woman. The Father doesn't have a Father or a God.
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    When did the Father become Jesus' God?

    Are you saying that Jesus' Father is not his Father and his God but that Jesus has no Father or God?

    Jesus is called "the firstborn out of the dead".

    Being raised from the dead is there likened to being born from the womb of a woman. Jesus was first called the son of God when he was born of a woman. "That which is born of flesh is flesh".

    When Jesus was born out of the dead he was born of spirit. "That which is born of spirit is spirit.".

    Now Jesus is called the son of God with power by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit)by being resurrected (born) from out of the dead.

    Rom 1:4 ; John 3:6
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    Jesus became son of God when he was born of a woman. He was then "crucified in weakness" of the flesh.

    He then was declared to be son of God in power by being born from the dead. Called "first or chief born from the dead"
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    I not taking anything out of context. I've already shown that Jesus is called the "firstborn of the dead". Therefore the Scripture likens the resurrection of the dead as being born from out of the dead. To be as the angels of God in heaven is to be called spirit. In fact, Jesus is now called a "life giving spirit".

    Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…

    In other words, in order to enter the kingdom of God one must become spirit by being BORN of the spirit(from the dead)as opposed to being flesh and blood.... born of flesh.

    Now, Paul speaks of the same exact thing when he says: "Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

    When the Scripture says that Jesus was "crucified in weakness" it refers to the weakness of the flesh which is perishable and cannot enter the kingdom of God. When Jesus was made of a woman he was of the same flesh as the rest of mankind. flesh is born of flesh.

    When Jesus was declared to be son of God in power it was because he was firstborn from the dead by being born again of the holy spirit and is now spirit, called life giving spirit.
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    If you want to claim that Jesus existed as the one God before he was born of Mary then you must also admit that after he was born of Mary he was no longer that One God because Jesus never claimed to possess anything that was not given, committed, or appointed to him from the Father.
    In complete ignorance of lexicography, you are arguing against a caricature of the Trinity doctrine with literally no understanding of what the Trinity is. You can’t validly address this topic.

    What is your affiliation? Christadelphian? Other?

    Leave a comment:


  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again JudgeRightly,
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Pretty sure no one has claimed such.
    My assessment of the Trinitarian view is that God the Son after the birth had two natures, one a continuity of His Divine Nature and the other his human nature. When Jesus was a child did he still have His Divine Mind, or was he completely restricted to his human mind that needed to be instructed and grow in wisdom? When Jesus was a child was He also God the Son and to what extent was he all-powerful, immortal, supreme, equal with God, not able to be tempted, omniscient (all-knowing), and cannot be seen by men?
    In other words, you think that Jesus DID NOT exist prior to the Holy Spirit conceiving Him in Mary's womb. Is that correct?
    Jesus DID NOT exist before he was conceived and born. Jesus was a human with God the Father as his father, and Mary as his mother and is thus the Son of God, a descendant of David and heir to the throne of David Luke 1:32-33. He is thus also a descendant of Adam and thus the son of Adam inheriting fallen human nature Hebrews 2:14, made lower than the angels Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:9 and he is also The Son of Man Psalm 8:4, Psalm 80:17. No other child born pre-existed, and this is not taught in the Bible. Some people believe in reincarnation and Mormons also believe that everyone pre-existed before their birth.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Leave a comment:


  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again 7djengo7,
    Originally posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I notice, here, that you slipped in the phrase, "the One Being called "the Father"". Where'd that come from? What (if anything) do you mean by "being"? What would you say makes something a being?
    From my 1968 print copy of Webster’s: being, n. 1. Existence, state of existing. 2. A human creature, living person; Deity: the Supreme Being.
    Thus humans exist and are beings, and God the Father exists and is a Being and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God exists and is a Being, and he is a separate Being from God His Father. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God, two Beings in heaven Psalm 110:1.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    If you want to claim that Jesus existed as the one God before he was born of Mary then you must also admit that after he was born of Mary he was no longer that One God because Jesus never claimed to possess anything that was not given, committed, or appointed to him from the Father.
    Not what I was asking. Answer the question I asked, and not the one you wish I would ask.

    Did Jesus exist before he was conceived in Mary's womb?

    Leave a comment:


  • 7djengo7
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again 7djengo7, If we say that there is One God and this One God is the Father, as defined for example in 1 Corinthians 8:6, then this defines that the One Being called “the Father” is the One God.
    I notice, here, that you slipped in the phrase, "the One Being called "the Father"". Where'd that come from? What (if anything) do you mean by "being"? What would you say makes something a being?

    Leave a comment:


  • Vail Lifted
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Still not answering my questions.

    Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?
    If you want to claim that Jesus existed as the one God before he was born of Mary then you must also admit that after he was born of Mary he was no longer that One God because Jesus never claimed to possess anything that was not given, committed, or appointed to him from the Father.

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma and JudgeRightly, I appreciate your long Post which I have abbreviated above. Yes I cannot accept your view, but believe that Jesus was a human, conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus born the Son of God Luke 1:35. He did not have two natures and did not exist before he was born. As a child he grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52 and as such he did not have two minds.
    Pretty sure no one has claimed such.

    Refer my answer as above. The narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2 clearly teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    In other words, you think that Jesus DID NOT exist prior to the Holy Spirit conceiving Him in Mary's womb. Is that correct?

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by Vail Lifted View Post
    I not taking anything out of context. I've already shown that Jesus is called the "firstborn of the dead". Therefore the Scripture likens the resurrection of the dead as being born from out of the dead. To be as the angels of God in heaven is to be called spirit. In fact, Jesus is now called a "life giving spirit".

    Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…

    In other words, in order to enter the kingdom of God one must become spirit by being BORN of the spirit(from the dead)as opposed to being flesh and blood.... born of flesh.

    Now, Paul speaks of the same exact thing when he says: "Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

    When the Scripture says that Jesus was "crucified in weakness" it refers to the weakness of the flesh which is perishable and cannot enter the kingdom of God. When Jesus was made of a woman he was of the same flesh as the rest of mankind. flesh is born of flesh.

    When Jesus was declared to be son of God in power it was because he was firstborn from the dead by being born again of the holy spirit and is now spirit, called life giving spirit.
    Still not answering my questions.

    Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?

    Leave a comment:


  • Vail Lifted
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Thank you for answering my question.



    The Father became Jesus' God at the incarnation of Christ, because Christ took on a second nature, that of Man.



    No.

    Question:

    Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?



    Agreed.



    Are you sure about that?



    Is that supposed to prove something (especially since you're taking it out of context...)?



    Again, taking something out of context doesn't help your position.



    Do you have a point?

    -------

    Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?
    I not taking anything out of context. I've already shown that Jesus is called the "firstborn of the dead". Therefore the Scripture likens the resurrection of the dead as being born from out of the dead. To be as the angels of God in heaven is to be called spirit. In fact, Jesus is now called a "life giving spirit".

    Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…

    In other words, in order to enter the kingdom of God one must become spirit by being BORN of the spirit(from the dead)as opposed to being flesh and blood.... born of flesh.

    Now, Paul speaks of the same exact thing when he says: "Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

    When the Scripture says that Jesus was "crucified in weakness" it refers to the weakness of the flesh which is perishable and cannot enter the kingdom of God. When Jesus was made of a woman he was of the same flesh as the rest of mankind. flesh is born of flesh.

    When Jesus was declared to be son of God in power it was because he was firstborn from the dead by being born again of the holy spirit and is now spirit, called life giving spirit.

    Leave a comment:

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