Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

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Apple7

New member
So, no.

You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.

And, you are living proof that whatever abilities you have in Greek, you believe a lie.

1 Cor 1:20-21 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.



You can't even read what I posted!

:rotfl:
 

Dartman

New member
You can't even read what I posted!
Titus 2:13

It isn't related. And, you misunderstand it.

It's your smoke screen.

You don't have anything that supports your theories.

You don't have anything that indicates knowing Greek is essential for Salvation.

Prov 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

 

Apple7

New member
You started with this zinger...

You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.


Now you keep moving the goal posts, and produced this new, and improved, zinger...


You don't have anything that indicates knowing Greek is essential for Salvation.



So...


Since you can't read Greek, and can only google a reply, how would you even know...?




:cigar::cigar:
 

Tigger 2

Active member
Dartman:
Prototokos means first born .... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".

Apple7:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firstborn [prototokos]
From protos and the alternate of tikto; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively) -- firstbegotten(-born).
see GREEK protos
see GREEK tikto

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις

κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc. ....
1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου, Romans 1:20.


Also here is another partitive genitive: “The firstborn of the dead.” - Rev. 1:5.
 

Dartman

New member
You started with this zinger...

You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.


Now you keep moving the goal posts, and produced this new, and improved, zinger...


You don't have anything that indicates knowing Greek is essential for Salvation.
...... do you REALLY think there's no relationship between my two sentences????

You REALLY don't see the similarity between "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth".
And, "knowing Greek is essential for Salvation". ??? No wonder you struggle with correctly interpreting the Greek, you don't do English well!

Let's look at it this way ..... IF there is such a difference, then I just doubled your chances of finding a Scripture to support your theory!

So, what 'cha got?
 

Dartman

New member
Prototokos means first born ....

Just like Tigger2 said....

... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".

NT:2937 ktisis (ktis'-is); from NT:2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively): KJV - building, creation, creature, ordinance.


Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Rom 8:19-22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature .
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
 

Apple7

New member
Dartman:

Apple7:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firstborn [prototokos]
From protos and the alternate of tikto; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively) -- firstbegotten(-born).
see GREEK protos
see GREEK tikto

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις

κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc. ....
1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου, Romans 1:20.


Also here is another partitive genitive: “The firstborn of the dead.” - Rev. 1:5.


Being 'born' is NEVER equated as being 'created'.

Any lexicon on the planet will tell you this, and overturn your attempting to blend the two...
 

Apple7

New member
...... do you REALLY think there's no relationship between my two sentences????

You REALLY don't see the similarity between "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth".
And, "knowing Greek is essential for Salvation". ??? No wonder you struggle with correctly interpreting the Greek, you don't do English well!

Let's look at it this way ..... IF there is such a difference, then I just doubled your chances of finding a Scripture to support your theory!

So, what 'cha got?


Keep morphing your assertion into something that you want it to say...
 

Apple7

New member
Prototokos means first born ....

Just like Tigger2 said....

... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".

NT:2937 ktisis (ktis'-is); from NT:2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively): KJV - building, creation, creature, ordinance.


Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Rom 8:19-22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature .
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


Again...

We are still waiting for you to produce scripture stating that Jesus was ever created.

Good luck...
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Apple7,
Again... We are still waiting for you to produce scripture stating that Jesus was ever created. Good luck...
Jesus was not created, but he was conceived by the power of God His Father Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. As such he was the firstborn of the new creation Revelation 3:14. God the Father was the father of Jesus and Mary was his mother, and as a result Jesus was the Son of God and a descendant of Adam. There was a greater creative process in the development and maturing of Jesus' character as he grew in wisdom and at the start of his ministry he was revealed as full of grace and truth. Another creative process was his resurrection from the dead and his change from a mortal body to an immortal spirit body and being and his exaltation to sit at the right hand of God His Father. Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Dartman

New member
Again...

We are still waiting for you to produce scripture stating that Jesus was ever created.

Good luck...
More dishonesty. This is the "Black Knight" defense..... deny everything, and hope the opposition just leaves in frustration.

The problem with that defense is, Rev 21:8 ... and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Another truth is, you are ignoring the obvious meaning of "creature".

Sad, but predictable.
 

Tigger 2

Active member
Apple7 wrote
"Being 'born' is NEVER equated as being 'created'.

Any lexicon on the planet will tell you this, and overturn your attempting to blend the two..."



BEGET - CREATE

“Begotten” and “created” are English words carefully chosen by Bible translators to convey the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words of the original manuscripts as closely as possible. So first we should determine what the words “created” and “begotten” actually mean in English. The Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1963 ed. that I have at home says:

create ... 1: to bring into existence...3 : cause, make” - p. 195.

And beget ... begot ... begotten ... 1 : to procreate as the father : sire 2 : cause” - p. 77.

These two words can share the identical meaning of “cause to be.” That is, we may say the mother has created a child or (more often) someone has begotten something that he built or produced somehow.

The Hebrew word yalad means “to bear, bring forth, beget” but it also can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for “cause to be.”

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #3205, p. 349: (Yalad, 'beget') ".... Used of God, to create."

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (BAGD): Gennao "1. beget - a. lit. become the father of .... 3. fig. bring forth, produce, cause" - pp. 154,155.

For example, when God says he “begot”/”fathered” (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be or created it as a nation. There is no implication that it was somehow begotten out of the very substance of his body. In like manner God calls the nation of Israel his son, his firstborn because it was the very first nation created by him and for him (cf. Ex. 4:22). Again, anything Jehovah creates may be said to be “begotten” by him and is his “offspring.”

“Is this the way you treat Jehovah? O foolish people, is not God your Father? Has he not created you?” - Deut. 32:6, Living Bible.

“You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and cared nothing for God who brought you to birth.” - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created: “Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth” - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; “begotten” - NAB (1970); “were given birth” - MLB. Or, “Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed.” - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated “begotten, brought forth” may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

The very title of God (“Father”) used as “source of all things” shows this common meaning throughout both testaments. God is the Father of all. What does this mean? He is the Father of the Universe, the Father of all creation, and even the Father of the Angels. (They truly are called “sons of God” and they were in existence before the earth was created - Job 38:4, 7, cf. Living Bible and NIVSB f.n.) They are spirit persons. Should we assume then that the angels were “begotten” from God in the sense that they have existed eternally and are actually composed of his very own spirit substance, etc.? After all, it doesn’t actually say that they were “created.” But we know they were created because their Father created/“begot” everything: He is the “Father of all” including the spirit persons in heaven. - Eph. 4:6; Heb. 1:7; 12:9.

Col. 1:15, 18 is an example of this.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. .... He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything." NASB. Jesus also says in Rev. 1:5 that he is the firstborn of the dead.

So how is Jesus “the first-born of all creation”? In the same way that the parallel second half (Col. 1:18) of this comparison shows it to be: the very first one produced in that category. That is, just as Christ was the very first one of all the dead to be resurrected (or re-born or re-created) to enjoy eternal life (“firstborn from the dead” - Col. 1:18), so he is also the very first one of all things created (“firstborn of all creation” - Col. 1:15).
 
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7djengo7

New member
Greetings again Apple7,Jesus was not created, but he was conceived by the power of God His Father Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. As such he was the firstborn of the new creation Revelation 3:14. God the Father was the father of Jesus and Mary was his mother, and as a result Jesus was the Son of God and a descendant of Adam. There was a greater creative process in the development and maturing of Jesus' character as he grew in wisdom and at the start of his ministry he was revealed as full of grace and truth. Another creative process was his resurrection from the dead and his change from a mortal body to an immortal spirit body and being and his exaltation to sit at the right hand of God His Father. Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

YOU just admitted the TRUTH that Jesus was not created! Of course, you heaped a dunghill of heretical gobbledygook right on top of your admission, but, nevertheless, you admitted the TRUTH that Jesus was not created! And, in your admission, you have put yourself at odds with your fellow heretics, Dartman and NWL. See, both those guys claim that Jesus was created.

God, alone, was not created. Jesus was not created. Therefore, Jesus is God.
 

Apple7

New member
Greetings again Apple7,Jesus was not created, but he was conceived by the power of God His Father Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35.

The incarnation was a Triune event.



As such he was the firstborn of the new creation Revelation 3:14.


Let’s review Rev 3.14…


και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou

Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:



First, Jesus is the one being directly quoted (tade legei) and His epithets are listed appropriately. Jesus is not applying these epithets to anyone else – as they are applied solely to Him, alone – same as He applies them to Himself all through Revelation chapters 2 & 3.




και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

In seven out of seven sequential verses, the formula ‘tade legei’ (demonstrative accusative; indicative verb) precedes the nominative singular masculine article ‘o’.

This translates into what is being stated by the epithets listed after the formula.

This means that listed epithets belong to Jesus – they do not represent separate entities.

The trend in all of these epithets points to Jesus’ deity not to Him being created.

Further, each address to the assemblies initiates with Jesus’ words, and then concludes with stating that the Spirit is the one who has just addressed them – thus, confirming the Trinity.

Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), of the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.

Jesus is God.

All things came into being through Jesus.

Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…


Peter to the Jews

ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)



Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life).
 

Apple7

New member
Apple7 wrote



BEGET - CREATE

“Begotten” and “created” are English words carefully chosen by Bible translators to convey the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words of the original manuscripts as closely as possible. So first we should determine what the words “created” and “begotten” actually mean in English. The Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1963 ed. that I have at home says:

“create ... 1: to bring into existence...3 : cause, make” - p. 195. And beget ... begot ... begotten ... 1 : to procreate as the father : sire 2 : cause” - p. 77.

These two words can share the identical meaning of “cause to be.” That is, we may say the mother has created a child or (more often) someone has begotten something that he built or produced somehow.

The Hebrew word yalad means “to bear, bring forth, beget” but it also can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for “cause to be.”

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #3205, p. 349: (Yalad, 'beget') ".... Used of God, to create."

For example, when God says he “begot”/”fathered” (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be or created it as a nation. There is no implication that it was somehow begotten out of the very substance of his body. In like manner God calls the nation of Israel his son, his firstborn because it was the very first nation created by him and for him (cf. Ex. 4:22). Again, anything Jehovah creates may be said to be “begotten” by him and is his “offspring.”

“Is this the way you treat Jehovah? O foolish people, is not God your Father? Has he not created you?” - Deut. 32:6, Living Bible.

“You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and cared nothing for God who brought you to birth.” - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created: “Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth” - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; “begotten” - NAB (1970); “were given birth” - MLB. Or, “Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed.” - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated “begotten, brought forth” may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

The very title of God (“Father”) used as “source of all things” shows this common meaning throughout both testaments. God is the Father of all. What does this mean? He is the Father of the Universe, the Father of all creation, and even the Father of the Angels. (They truly are called “sons of God” and they were in existence before the earth was created - Job 38:4, 7, cf. Living Bible and NIVSB f.n.) They are spirit persons. Should we assume then that the angels were “begotten” from God in the sense that they have existed eternally and are actually composed of his very own spirit substance, etc.? After all, it doesn’t actually say that they were “created.” But we know they were created because their Father created/“begot” everything: He is the “Father of all” including the spirit persons in heaven. - Eph. 4:6; Heb. 1:7; 12:9.

Col. 1:15, 18 is an example of this.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. .... He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything." NASB. Jesus also says in Rev. 1:5 that he is the firstborn of the dead.

So how is Jesus “the first-born of all creation”? In the same way that the parallel second half (Col. 1:18) of this comparison shows it to be: the very first one produced in that category. That is, just as Christ was the very first one of all the dead to be resurrected (or re-born or re-created) to enjoy eternal life (“firstborn from the dead” - Col. 1:18), so he is also the very first one of all things created (“firstborn of all creation” - Col. 1:15).


You should actually read what you google, before making yourself look foolish.

No serious student of scripture uses a modern English Webster's Dictionary when defining Biblical terms.

Is this the only way that you can make your assertion that Jesus was created, work?

No incarnation verb even remotely implies that Jesus was created.

Keep googling...
 

Dartman

New member
No incarnation verb even remotely implies that Jesus was created.
There is no "incarnation", either stated or described.
There was a miracle which CAUSED the conception, and then a normal child birth.
12 years later, Jesus was ....... wait for it ........ 12 years old.
 
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