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  • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    The Rider on the horse is the Spirit, it is his sword, coming out of his mouth.

    What is the sword?
    The rider on the white horse of Rev 19:11-13 is the Lord Jesus Himself returning physically, bodily to planet earth to execute judgement at His second coming.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
      Ah, I understand what you were reacting to now. I sincerely apologize. It's just that you sounded really strange and random.

      1 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
      (9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

      No one has made any allegation that Moses is God. Moses sinned against God, God did not let him enter the promised land. No one ever came to Moses and said "you maketh yourself God" and Moses never ever called himself by names or titles of God.

      1 Corinthians 9:21 KJV
      (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

      We have a different situation with Christ, whom John introduces as the Word who was God, and then ends his gospel with "my Lord and my God." If Jesus were not actually our God in the flesh (which it actually does say elsewhere) then it would be very important for Paul (and any other writer) to make that distinction clear.

      So to me this is a fairly obvious correlation and evidence, it's another strand woven around all the others that are already there. I am not asking you to be persuaded by that passage. There's far stronger and more direct. That was an indirect reference I noticed in passing that I'd not noticed before.
      My objection, was with your argument that, since Paul used the term "Law of Christ", that indicates or somehow proves Christ's divinity. If using the term "Law Of Christ", suggests that Christ is God, then when the bible identifies God's law, as the "Law of Moses", that would also, following your line of reasoning, suggest Moses' is God. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If the term "Law of Christ" points to Christ's divinity, then "Law Of Moses" would point to Moses' divinity. I don't believe Christ or Moses are YHWH. I'm simply making an observation, of the implications of what you're proposing.

      As far as John 1:1..It's not clear as to whether the Logos that was with God, is a person or just a god or divine person. The Logos, may not be "GOD" with a capital "G". There are many gods and powers, mentioned in the bible, and all of them aren't false gods. David is called god, Moses is identified as god, the judges of Israel are gods, angels are gods. The devil is the "god of this age/aeon". That doesn't imply that these gods or powers, authorities, are the almighty God. YHWH, the one true God ( with a capital G).

      Thomas might not have been directing those words to Jesus, but to YHWH. However, even if he was directing those words to Jesus, that doesn't necessarily imply that Thomas was identifying Jesus as YHWH, the One True God. The end of the gospel of John, tells us the purpose of that gospel. It's for us to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus had a God, His God, is the one true God, YHWH, the heavenly Father.

      It's best for us to rely on the gospel of Matthew, which is the only gospel written to Israel, in Hebrew or Aramaic, by one of the 12 apostles. Matthew's gospel, has more authority, and takes precedence, over all of the others. Wherever one gospel, might disagree with Matthew on a certain issue, we should side with Matthew's version. Israel maintains three levels of scriptural authority. All of the books, in the Jewish or Israelite canon of scripture, don't hold equal authority. There's Torah, Nevem, Kethuvim / The Law - Prophets - Writings.

      As disciples of Messiah, those called out from the nations, we must hold the words of Messiah, in the gospel of Matthew, as having the highest authority, equal to Torah. Messiah delivered the Torah to Moses on mount Sinai, and His interpretation of Torah, is to be observed. We are in the process, of entering the promise land. The Jordan is near, and we will cross it soon, but we are not there yet. The New Covenant is dawning, replacing the night or darkness of this fallen age. The New Covenant will be consummated, with the house of Israel and Judah, when Messiah returns. It's Israel/Judah, united, that will reign with Messiah, over the nations.
      Last edited by RealityJerk; August 18, 2017, 03:08 PM. Reason: Typo

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
        Already answered that question.
        Jesus is the Spirit. He is the Rider on the horse and the sword is his coming out of his mouth.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by steko View Post
          The rider on the white horse of Rev 19:11-13 is the Lord Jesus Himself returning physically, bodily to planet earth to execute judgement at His second coming.
          I know. I am proving to BR that Jesus is the Lord and he is the Spirit.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
            My objection, was with your argument that, since Paul used the term "Law of Christ", that indicates or somehow proves Christ's divinity. If using the term "Law Of Christ", suggests that Christ is God, then when the bible identifies God's law, as the "Law of Moses", that would also, following your line of reasoning, suggest Moses' is God. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If the term "Law of Christ" points to Christ's divinity, then "Law Of Moses" would point to Moses' divinity. I don't believe Christ or Moses are YHWH. I'm simply making an observation, of the implications of what you're proposing.

            Paul doesn't use the law of Moses as a synonym for the law of God. See Romans 7:22, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:7. And whereas Moses is known to have gone up unto a mountain to receive the law of God and to have returned with stone tablets, we have no such event concerning Christ. The words of Jesus were God's words.

            1Co 9:21 KJV
            (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


            Besides, if you read closely you will not that this is not a term of "the law of God" being invoked. Paul isn't using a recognized name, he is using actual language. "Being now without law to God" and "under the law to Christ" are one and the same. The only change in words are the objects, God and Christ, and Paul uses them interchangeably.

            This wouldn't be the only place he freely interchanges them either. "Every knee shall bow?" Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10. We know Jesus is Christ because Paul interchanges the words, we know Jesus is God because Paul interchanges the words. Even the very passage where God uses for "for I am God, there is none else" and "a just God and a Savior, there is none beside me" Paul takes this identification and applies it to Jesus.

            Spoiler
            Isa 45:21-23 KJV
            (21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
            (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
            (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

            Rom 14:10-12 KJV
            (10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
            (11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
            (12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

            Php 2:9-11 KJV
            (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
            (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
            (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

            Note that in the Romans passage above, we stand at the judgment seat of Christ, and give account of ourselves to God. Another equivalence. And in Philippians Paul has quoted the passage from Isaiah slightly differently this time, where "unto me every knee shall bow" is now "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow."

            Speaking plainly, Paul wasn't Unitarian. No Unitarian writes like this. If we allow that Paul's words are inspired scripture, look at how he writes. Out of all possible interpretations, his interpretation is the correct one. His understanding was that God and Christ and Jesus were the same. He may use different terms as the occasion arises, but he has no trouble with swapping them about freely as synonyms.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
              My objection, was with your argument that, since Paul used the term "Law of Christ", that indicates or somehow proves Christ's divinity. If using the term "Law Of Christ", suggests that Christ is God, then when the bible identifies God's law, as the "Law of Moses", that would also, following your line of reasoning, suggest Moses' is God. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If the term "Law of Christ" points to Christ's divinity, then "Law Of Moses" would point to Moses' divinity. I don't believe Christ or Moses are YHWH. I'm simply making an observation, of the implications of what you're proposing.

              As far as John 1:1..It's not clear as to whether the Logos that was with God, is a person or just a god or divine person. The Logos, may not be "GOD" with a capital "G". There are many gods and powers, mentioned in the bible, and all of them aren't false gods. David is called god, Moses is identified as god, the judges of Israel are gods, angels are gods. The devil is the "god of this age/aeon". That doesn't imply that these gods or powers, authorities, are the almighty God. YHWH, the one true God ( with a capital G).

              Thomas might not have been directing those words to Jesus, but to YHWH. However, even if he was directing those words to Jesus, that doesn't necessarily imply that Thomas was identifying Jesus as YHWH, the One True God. The end of the gospel of John, tells us the purpose of that gospel. It's for us to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus had a God, His God, is the one true God, YHWH, the heavenly Father.

              It's best for us to rely on the gospel of Matthew, which is the only gospel written to Israel, in Hebrew or Aramaic, by one of the 12 apostles. Matthew's gospel, has more authority, and takes precedence, over all of the others. Wherever one gospel, might disagree with Matthew on a certain issue, we should side with Matthew's version. Israel maintains three levels of scriptural authority. All of the books, in the Jewish or Israelite canon of scripture, don't hold equal authority. There's Torah, Nevem, Kethuvim / The Law - Prophets - Writings.

              As disciples of Messiah, those called out from the nations, we must hold the words of Messiah, in the gospel of Matthew, as having the highest authority, equal to Torah. Messiah delivered the Torah to Moses on mount Sinai, and His interpretation of Torah, is to be observed. We are in the process, of entering the promise land. The Jordan is near, and we will cross it soon, but we are not there yet. The New Covenant is dawning, replacing the night or darkness of this fallen age. The New Covenant will be consummated, with the house of Israel and Judah, when Messiah returns. It's Israel/Judah, united, that will reign with Messiah, over the nations.
              When are you going to address my posts to you?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
                As far as John 1:1..It's not clear as to whether the Logos that was with God, is a person or just a god or divine person. The Logos, may not be "GOD" with a capital "G". There are many gods and powers, mentioned in the bible, and all of them aren't false gods. David is called god, Moses is identified as god, the judges of Israel are gods, angels are gods. The devil is the "god of this age/aeon". That doesn't imply that these gods or powers, authorities, are the almighty God. YHWH, the one true God ( with a capital G).
                It's very clear that the Logos was with God and was God with a capital G. John specifies that this God created all things. That means it's the same God that we read about in Genesis 1. In the beginning, God... and In the beginning was the Word... invoke the same backdrop and event, and the same creation of the world.

                No "god" created the world. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1.

                Thomas might not have been directing those words to Jesus, but to YHWH. However, even if he was directing those words to Jesus, that doesn't necessarily imply that Thomas was identifying Jesus as YHWH, the One True God. The end of the gospel of John, tells us the purpose of that gospel. It's for us to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus had a God, His God, is the one true God, YHWH, the heavenly Father.
                He wasn't directing those words to Jesus? Jesus was the one who answered. You're suggesting it would be correctly translated as "OMG " perhaps? If so then Jesus might have had something else to say to Thomas instead. Something about "taking the name of the LORD in vain" rather than affirming his belief, instead of praising those who would believe likewise later on faith.

                Rather, "My Lord and my God" is the correct interpretation of the Son of God. Elsewhere John wouldn't have introduced us by telling us that the Word was God and that the Word created all things. We ARE told that Jesus created all things. We ARE told that God is the Creator. We are NEVER told that "the Son of God is not God" which seems to be the unsupported assumption you (and others here) are relying on as if it were some sort of given. It's not a given. That assumption is unscriptural.

                It's best for us to rely on the gospel of Matthew, which is the only gospel written to Israel, in Hebrew or Aramaic, by one of the 12 apostles. Matthew's gospel, has more authority, and takes precedence, over all of the others. Wherever one gospel, might disagree with Matthew on a certain issue, we should side with Matthew's version. Israel maintains three levels of scriptural authority. All of the books, in the Jewish or Israelite canon of scripture, don't hold equal authority. There's Torah, Nevem, Kethuvim / The Law - Prophets - Writings.
                Regardless of any Jewish traditions, Christians have a different level of scriptural authority.

                2Ti 3:16-17 KJV
                (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
                (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


                No, it is best for us to rely on all scripture, not to pick and choose and discard parts that become inconvenient to us. There is no disagreement. As Jesus himself said, the scripture cannot be broken. John 10:35. Also one of Christ's own identifications of himself as our God, by the way.

                As disciples of Messiah, those called out from the nations, we must hold the words of Messiah, in the gospel of Matthew, as having the highest authority, equal to Torah. Messiah delivered the Torah to Moses on mount Sinai, and His interpretation of Torah, is to be observed. We are in the process, of entering the promise land. The Jordan is near, and we will cross it soon, but we are not there yet. The New Covenant is dawning, replacing the night or darkness of this fallen age. The New Covenant will be consummated, with the house of Israel and Judah, when Messiah returns. It's Israel/Judah, united, that will reign with Messiah, over the nations.
                But according to the judge of the quick and the dead, it's the saints of Christ that will reign over the nations.

                Rev 20:4 KJV
                (4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                Last edited by Rosenritter; August 18, 2017, 04:40 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                  I know. I am proving to BR that Jesus is the Lord and he is the Spirit.
                  Jesus is NOT the Spirit.
                  Jesus IS the Lord.
                  Jesus said that the Father would send the Spirit in Jesus' name (John 14:26).
                  Jesus addressed the Holy Spirit as "He" and NOT "me".
                  Jesus said in John 16:14-15: “He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”

                  It matters not how much you say that they are the same person, the Bible in its ORIGINAL CONTEXT refutes your assertion.

                  Your doctrine is from oneness Pentecostal groups. Your doctrine sounds similar to T.D. Jakes'.

                  ====

                  The one on the white horse of Revelation 6:2 is not the Lord (he has a bow but no arrows).

                  on the other hand:
                  The one on the white horse of Revelation 19:11-16 is the Faithful and True, which is our Lord Christ Jesus coming to pour His wrath over the Earth.
                  Last edited by lifeisgood; August 18, 2017, 04:33 PM.
                  No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
                  No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
                  No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                    There are three, do you dispute that?
                    No.

                    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                    There is God the Father, He is a Spirit, invisible and lives in unapproachable light. Do you agree?
                    No, I do NOT agree that the Father is ‘a’ Spirit.

                    “God is spirit,” Jesus declared, “and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).

                    God is spirit. There is NO definite article in the Greek text before the word spirit, emphasizing the quality of the word.

                    The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit!

                    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                    There is God the Father with a body, and in this state He is called the Son.
                    Where is the verse saying that God the Father is called the Son as you assert?

                    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                    There is the Holy Spirit of God the Father which goes forth without limit. Do you agree?
                    No.

                    There is the Holy Spirit that the Father sends at the petition of the Son.

                    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                    Because Jesus IS God the Father, because he has a physical body, he is called a Son.
                    No! No! No! Jesus IS NOT God the Father. ALL you, gt, are doing is asserting YOUR idea and NOT what the Bible say.

                    Your doctrine sounds like T.D. Jakes’. He preaches just like you.
                    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
                    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
                    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
                      Jesus is NOT the Spirit.
                      The Rider has a Sword. The Sword is the Spirit's. The Rider is Jesus and is the Spirit.

                      Ephesians 6:17

                      “Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

                      Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
                      Jesus said that the Father would send the Spirit in Jesus' name (John 14:26).
                      How do you get that disproves Jesus being the Spirit?
                      Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post

                      Jesus addressed the Holy Spirit as "He" and NOT "me".
                      There are three. How do you get that Jesus should say 'me'?

                      Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
                      It matters not how much you say that they are the same person, the Bible in its ORIGINAL CONTEXT refutes your assertion.

                      Your doctrine is from oneness Pentecostal groups. Your doctrine sounds similar to T.D. Jakes'.
                      I believe the three exist at the same time, and modalists do not believe that.

                      The scriptures PLAINLY say the Lord is the Spirit.

                      How do you think you can get out of that?

                      2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

                      2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                        The Rider has a Sword. The Sword is the Spirit's. The Rider is Jesus and is the Spirit.
                        Which rider the one in Rev. 6 or the one in Rev. 19?

                        Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                        Ephesians 6:17

                        “Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

                        How do you get that disproves Jesus being the Spirit?
                        Another example of you taking the text out of its ORIGINAL context and parroting your doctrine.

                        Jesus said in John 16:14-15: “He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”

                        Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                        There are three. How do you get that Jesus should say 'me'?
                        Here we go again. You are NOT reading for comprehension.

                        Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                        I believe the three exist at the same time, and modalists do not believe that.

                        The scriptures PLAINLY say the Lord is the Spirit.
                        No! Holy writ refutes you. It matters not how much you profess that it does not.

                        Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                        How do you think you can get out of that?

                        2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

                        2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
                        Another perfect example of gt taking the text out of its ORIGINAL context.
                        No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
                        No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
                        No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
                          Which rider the one in Rev. 6 or the one in Rev. 19?
                          We have been talking about Jesus, the Rider with the sword.

                          Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post

                          Another example of you taking the text out of its ORIGINAL context and parroting your doctrine.

                          Jesus said in John 16:14-15: “He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”



                          Here we go again. You are NOT reading for comprehension.



                          No! Holy writ refutes you. It matters not how much you profess that it does not.



                          Another perfect example of gt taking the text out of its ORIGINAL context.
                          Notice that you ignore the scriptures that plainly, clearly say the Lord is the Spirit.

                          Why do you refuse and not believe?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                            I know. I am proving to BR that Jesus is the Lord and he is the Spirit.
                            You may as well stop because you can't prove He is the Holy Spirit. Try again
                            He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                            Jim Elliot

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                              There is only one God and He is the Father. He came as a Man. He did not pretend to come as a Man.

                              Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God. Jesus raised himself from the dead. Jesus is exactly the same as the Father, no difference.
                              Jesus isn't the Spirit, he isn't the father, and he isn't God. Jesus is the Christ. The Son of the living God. And the father is his God and father. He only speaks what the father gives him to speak and everything is done through him.

                              John 14

                              But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

                              Ephesians 6

                              And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

                              John 7

                              He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me

                              John 12

                              For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

                              Revelation 1

                              The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass

                              God was in Jesus

                              2 Corinthians 5

                              And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

                              To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

                              Look at Paul in ephesians 1, God the Father and Christ are separate. And this is shown in the rest of the verses I've quoted (below) and some show that the father is the God and father of Jesus Christ.

                              Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

                              That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,

                              And here

                              1 Peter 1

                              Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

                              2 Corinthians 11

                              The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

                              Colossians 1

                              We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

                              Romans 1

                              Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              And this

                              First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all


                              Romans 16

                              To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

                              1 Corinthians 1

                              Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              2 Corinthians 1

                              Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

                              2 Corinthians 13

                              The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

                              Galatians 1

                              Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

                              And this

                              Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

                              Ephesians 6

                              Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              Philippians 1

                              Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              Philippians 4

                              But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

                              Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


                              Colossians 1

                              Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              And this

                              We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

                              1 Thessalonians 1

                              Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              And the same is written in 2 Thessalonians 1

                              Also

                              1 Timothy 1

                              Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

                              Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

                              2 Timothy 1

                              To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord

                              Philemon 1

                              Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                              James 1

                              James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

                              1 Peter 5

                              But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,

                              2 Peter 1

                              For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

                              1 John 1

                              That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

                              2 John 1

                              Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

                              Jude 1

                              Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

                              Jesus isn't the father, (as the verses above show), he isn't God, and the father who is God, is his God and father as shown above!

                              Sorry for the long post.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                                The analogy of the bank account only goes so far. If you want a more precise analogy I need to dip into newer technology or science-fiction for illustrative examples. Your question about will is also answered with analogy. For example, if you marry someone, you make a vow to love them forever. That is your stated will. Later in life, you may encounter trouble that may threaten to cool that love, to act counter to your stated will. Will you obey your will then, or will you obey your will now?

                                Consider that "Father" as Christ's will determined before hand, and Christ's will as the exercise of that will in the actual live situation. Like I use with the analogy of the alarm clock. My stated will is for me to get up at a specific time. When it is that time, my will may pull me to do otherwise, to ignore the clock. Both are my will, even though there are two different wills.

                                Why shouldn't you believe Jesus? You should. Which is why when Jesus says "I AM" and calls himself the first and the last, the beginning and the end ... and besides which there is no other God (is the continuation of that reference) you're also supposed to believe him when he speaks plainly. In all these months I have never heard you attempt to answer these plain statements of scripture. I've only heard you skirt about them and hide behind the metaphorical references of indirection.
                                I will read this properly tomorrow as it's late here, goodnight

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