Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[ok doser]

The casual flippancy..

my flippancy is directed at your moronic trolling, not at the suffering of others

of someone who thinks the suffering of other people is no big deal.

that's not me

 

[glorydaz]

artie - imagine that I have kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered seventeen small children

do i deserve justice or "love"?

I'm sure your mama would still love you, dose.

 

[glorydaz]

my flippancy is directed at your moronic trolling, not at the suffering of others




that's not me

Wonder who is trolling who here? :think:

 

[ok doser]

Wonder who is trolling who here? :think:

looks like you at the moment

care to contribute on topic?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Then let's put this to rest and move on.

Fine by me, I was just responding to your erroneous claim.

That would be true, if it weren't Christ's completed work on the Cross.

I'm no longer identified as a sinner, even though I still sin.

I'm identified in Christ, and I am considered "justified." When God looks at me, he sees Christ, for Christ is my covering.

The wicked are not, and when God looks at them, he sees their wickedness.

I asked a question about the wicked.

Ergo, I am excluded, by default, from the question.

So, what, you think that the "wicked" are those who don't believe or believe in a different 'God' like Allah etc? There's a passage in the bible where it seems to indicate that those who believe aren't recognised and a bit miffed as they go on about how they've cast out demons and performed works in Jesus' name. I seem to recall that they were rebuked with how unloving they were to their fellow man...

Maybe you should answer the questions I ask, and not the questions you wish I would ask.

Except my answer wasn't off point was it?

Thank you for making our point for us.

As you said, "if it's done in love."

God separating the wicked from His own is done in love.

That they spend the rest of eternity separated from Him is done out of love for both them and for His own.

This is the point we have been trying to make to you. It IS out of love that God casts those who reject Him into the Lake of Fire, because, as Christ said in the Garden of Gethsemane three times, "if there be any other way, let this cup pass from Me, but if not, let Your will be done" (in other words, there's no other way for God to save mankind from themselves, but for Christ to die for them on the Cross).

"Us"?

:AMR:

All the above shows is personal selfishness and a completely unloving attitude towards your fellow, fallible man. Let me ask you this JR, if God could reconcile all of humanity with no possible risk to your own place in the Heavenly realm then would you be okay with that?

Why is separation from God not the cause of their torment, instead of God Himself?

As scripture says:

Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “ and not that he should turn from his ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:23&version=NKJV

Total semantics, and again, hardly a loving attitude towards others. Annihilation makes more sense than what you put forward.

 

[glorydaz]

That they spend the rest of eternity separated from Him is done out of love for both them and for His own.

Does that part in yellow really make sense to you?
Perhaps you should rethink it.

 

[glorydaz]

looks like you at the moment

care to contribute on topic?

I have to sort you guys out first. Find out what you're trying to say ON TOPIC. :chew:

 

[Arthur Brain]

my flippancy is directed at your moronic trolling, not at the suffering of others

If you think I'm trolling then report me. Otherwise, your track record of anticipating and flat out gloating over your sick fantasies of laughing at others in "hell" is not only on this thread, it's been going on over the years, with Rusha, TH etc.

that's not me

Of course it is. Why you shy away from it is anyone's guess.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Does that part in yellow really make sense to you?
Perhaps you should rethink it.

Sure didn't make any sense to me...

 

[JudgeRightly]

So, what, you think that the "wicked" are those who don't believe or believe in a different 'God' like Allah etc?

I have already, at your request, defined "wicked."

That is the definition I used when I asked you my question above.

The "wicked" (group of people" are those who are "evil or morally wrong."

There's a passage in the bible where it seems to indicate that those who believe aren't recognised and a bit miffed as they go on about how they've cast out demons and performed works in Jesus' name. I seem to recall that they were rebuked with how unloving they were to their fellow man...

Perhaps I could respond to this, if you had quoted the passage in question...

Except my answer wasn't off point was it?

"Us"?

Doser, myself, among others.

:AMR:

All the above shows is personal selfishness and a completely unloving attitude towards your fellow, fallible man.

How so? You're the one who said, "if it's done in love."

I'm building on your own argument, Arthur.

Let me ask you this JR, if God could reconcile all of humanity with no possible risk to your own place in the Heavenly realm then would you be okay with that?

Christ answered this question. I even mentioned his answer in my previous post.

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” . . . Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” . . . So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:39,42,44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:39,42,44&version=NKJV

If there was any other way for Christ to reconcile the world to Himself, other than the Cross, then He would have done so.

Total semantics, and again, hardly a loving attitude towards others. Annihilation makes more sense than what you put forward.

Again, if anything other than Christ's death on the cross would have reconciled man to himself, don't you think He would have done so, based on the above scripture?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Does that part in yellow really make sense to you?
Perhaps you should rethink it.

It makes perfect sense, and is the only possible option.

Maybe you should consider it more before rejecting it out of hand.

 

[glorydaz]

Sure didn't make any sense to me...

It's one of those cases of people wanting their cake and eating it, too.
They can say, "You'll burn in hell" and then say they didn't mention torture.

For what do they burn? For their wicked ways? Or for their unbelief?

Lots of opinions, but I can argue both sides of this issue myself.
And, even worse, I can convince myself to believe both sides. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

It makes perfect sense, and is the only possible option.

Maybe you should consider it more before rejecting it out of hand.

Don't need to since I considered it well before I commented, and the verses you gave did not support your statement, either. Take the statement I highlighted, and explain how that can be.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It's one of those cases of people wanting their cake and eating it, too.
They can say, "You'll burn in hell" and then say they didn't mention torture.

The Bible doesn't say "torture." It says torment.

Why is separation from God not the cause of their torment, instead of God Himself?

For what do they burn? For their wicked ways? Or for their unbelief?

Because they never got right with God.

Lots of opinions, but I can argue both sides of this issue myself.
And, even worse, I can convince myself to believe both sides. :chuckle;

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. - James 1:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James1:8&version=KJV

 

[ok doser]

artie - imagine that I have kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered seventeen small children

do i deserve justice or "love"?

:think:

 

[ok doser]

If you think I'm trolling ..

of course you are

your track record of anticipating and flat out gloating over your sick fantasies of laughing at others in "hell" is not only on this thread, it's been going on over the years, with Rusha, TH etc.

:yawn: that's nice

Of course it is.

nope

 

[glorydaz]

AB said,

Let me ask you this JR, if God could reconcile all of humanity with no possible risk to your own place in the Heavenly realm then would you be okay with that?

Christ answered this question. I even mentioned his answer in my previous post.

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” . . . Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” . . . So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:39,42,44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:39,42,44&version=NKJV

If there was any other way for Christ to reconcile the world to Himself, other than the Cross, then He would have done so.

Again, if anything other than Christ's death on the cross would have reconciled man to himself, don't you think He would have done so, based on the above scripture?

Actually, He did reconcile all of humanity through His death. But, Artie is not really asking you about that, is he? He is talking about the punishment given to those who are not "saved by His life".

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

 

[JudgeRightly]

Don't need to since I considered it well before I commented, and the verses you gave did not support your statement, either. Take the statement I highlighted, and explain how that can be.

I refrained from presenting this scenario to Arty earlier in this thread because I've posed it to him a couple times before.

Based on a true story (unfortunately):

A mother and a father have two children, a boy and a girl. The boy is several years older than his sister. Their parents love both of them dearly.

The parents find out that their son has been molesting his sister, and even though they're devastated, they still love both of their children. Glory, what should the parents do?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I have already, at your request, defined "wicked."

That is the definition I used when I asked you my question above.

The "wicked" (group of people" are those who are "evil or morally wrong."

Would you define a casual flippancy and a sick, gloating glee at the prospect of the eternal suffering of others to be ethical? Otherwise, there's many an atheist who displays compassion and humanity towards their fellow man.

Perhaps I could respond to this, if you had quoted the passage in question...

There's a couple, I thought you'd be familiar.

Doser, myself, among others.

Oh, maybe I should start referring to myself as "we" or something as well then?

How so? You're the one who said, "if it's done in love."

I'm building on your own argument, Arthur.

What you're "building on" wouldn't pass many safety standard tests.

:AMR:

Christ answered this question. I even mentioned his answer in my previous post.

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” . . . Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” . . . So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:39,42,44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:39,42,44&version=NKJV

If there was any other way for Christ to reconcile the world to Himself, other than the Cross, then He would have done so.



Again, if anything other than Christ's death on the cross would have reconciled man to himself, don't you think He would have done so, based on the above scripture?

Who's to say it wasn't enough?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I refrained from presenting this scenario to Arty earlier in this thread because I've posed it to him a couple times before.

Based on a true story (unfortunately):

A mother and a father have two children, a boy and a girl. The boy is several years older than his sister. Their parents love both of them dearly.

The parents find out that their son has been molesting his sister, and even though they're devastated, they still love both of their children. Glory, what should the parents do?

And I answered you on this along with how it didn't work in relation to the subject. If God reconciles all of mankind then you're in no danger of having your personal bliss usurped.