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  • Dear Lon

    In this important post, TH sums up the attack upon American values and culture as well as our history with the following:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Town Heretic
    The problem with striking these symbols commemorating the foundational truth at the heart of the peoples who did most of the building and dying to establish and preserve our compact is that it isn't leveling the field. It's giving it to anti-atheists, who lacking an equivalent, desire to destroy the peace of everyone else. Who create an offense for themselves that's needless, reckless and pointlessly divisive in a way the monuments aren't and never really have been here.

    If the Ten Commandments offend you then you're either evil or an idiot. And that will do you much more harm (and do much more harm to others) than any monument.

    Suggesting that every sort of jackassery cobbled by humanists to mock religion should have equal weight and consideration is part of the problem of that crowd. It's an irrational, hostile nonsense packaged in the name of rationality and sobriety.

    Humbug.
    My vote for POTY too btw. It is incredibly important regarding our nation and what it will be with the changing landscape. We must stop selfish people from attacking our families, values, history, faith, and heritage. -Lon
    I find it more than just a little humorous that TH is being lauded for complaining about an offense against symbols. Only on TOL …
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, others just gargle.

  • #2
    Originally posted by fzappa13 View Post
    I find it more than just a little humorous that TH is being lauded for complaining about an offense against symbols. Only on TOL …
    Can you unpack this a wee bit so I can understand exactly what you mean? Thanks in advance.

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
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    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
      Can you unpack this a wee bit so I can understand exactly what you mean? Thanks in advance.

      AMR
      Well, it appears that the thread in which TH championed the obliteration of the stars and bars from the face of the earth in a fit of ideological oversimplification, is no longer to be found. A pity as it is an outstanding example of the sort of thinking that allows one to hold sacred their own symbols whilst rationalizing trampling that of others under foot ... all in the name of an ideology whose precepts are, at best, loosely grounded on selected factoids whilst ignoring others for the sake of an ideology which cannot tolerate the continued place in history of the various people and causes this flag represents to him.

      Now, I for one, would not be inclined to call the Ten Commandments a symbol, but, the Word of God. However, I realize that for many they are a symbol of Christianity in particular and religion in general and, as such, I can see how they might give a 1st amendment purist gas were they too closely associated with a function of government.

      That said, I just find it hilarious that TH is more than happy to erase from history any hint of an ideological windmill he has chosen to tilt at whist feigning indignation when his ideological ox gets gored.

      After all, if you believe that such things signal the immanent return of Christ then we should be celebrating and not grousing.
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, others just gargle.

      Comment


      • #4
        I saw the Selected Factoids open for the Plastmatics in '81.
        "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
        Terence Mc Lean

        [most will be very surprised]


        Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
        By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by fzappa13 View Post
          Well, it appears that the thread in which TH championed the obliteration of the stars and bars from the face of the earth in a fit of ideological oversimplification, is no longer to be found. A pity as it is an outstanding example of the sort of thinking that allows one to hold sacred their own symbols whilst rationalizing trampling that of others under foot ... all in the name of an ideology whose precepts are, at best, loosely grounded on selected factoids whilst ignoring others for the sake of an ideology which cannot tolerate the continued place in history of the various people and causes this flag represents to him.

          Now, I for one, would not be inclined to call the Ten Commandments a symbol, but, the Word of God. However, I realize that for many they are a symbol of Christianity in particular and religion in general and, as such, I can see how they might give a 1st amendment purist gas were they too closely associated with a function of government.

          That said, I just find it hilarious that TH is more than happy to erase from history any hint of an ideological windmill he has chosen to tilt at whist feigning indignation when his ideological ox gets gored.

          After all, if you believe that such things signal the immanent return of Christ then we should be celebrating and not grousing.
          I'm not sure what the reference to the flag and its desecration is regarding. A lawyer is going to embrace what law allows to ensure all freedom, but will also believe it wrong to do so. Town often gets a lot of misunderstanding because of that.

          Perhaps I'll let him field the difference. I think lawyers have to live with a dichotomy between 'freedom for all' and 'against my values' that the rest of us do not share. Should it be that way? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.


          I think that 'removing the flag' vs. desecrating it are a bit different. You could make a copy of the ten commandments, for instance, and then dash them on the mountain side. Or make a flag and burn it. You cannot, however, damage them on public property. Is that the issue?
          -Lon

          P.S. If you happened to have read this before the edit, my apologies. I mistook you for another poster and his liberal agenda (in thread, the liberals want something, I think, different from what you seem to be addressing here and I wasn't changing gears to catch up to your specific concern which seems to be different. If not, it is a 'just in case' apology.
          Last edited by Lon; December 20th, 2015, 09:04 PM. Reason: I wasn't reading or responding to what was being said and made a mistake or two
          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

          ? Yep

          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

          Comment


          • #6
            I saw Uncritical Pendulum open for Jellyfish in '90.
            "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
            Terence Mc Lean

            [most will be very surprised]


            Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
            By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by musterion View Post
              I saw the Selected Factoids open for the Plastmatics in '81.
              I didn't think you looked that old. I was listening to Keith Green, Benny Hester, and Petra at that time. Michael and Stormy Omartian and 2nd Chapter of Acts too. I began attending Multnomah Bible College just two years after this.

              Originally posted by musterion View Post
              I saw Uncritical Pendulum open for Jellyfish in '90.
              Thank God you left liberalism there in the 90's then I was listening to David and the Giants, Daniel Amos, and Mylon LeFevre at that time and just starting to listen to DC Talk.

              I may have missed your intention regarding UP being too soft, perhaps. I dunno, just thought I'd run with it.
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by musterion View Post
                I saw the Selected Factoids open for the Plastmatics in '81.
                When you were 12 ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fzappa13 View Post
                  Well, it appears that the thread in which TH championed the obliteration of the stars and bars from the face of the earth in a fit of ideological oversimplification, is no longer to be found.
                  I didn't at any point actually do that and it wasn't at any point reasonably anything of the sort.

                  A pity as it is an outstanding example of the sort of thinking that allows one to hold sacred their own symbols whilst rationalizing trampling that of others under foot
                  Not it at all. And this waving of an empty sleeve at a want of specifics is beneath you, or should be.

                  .. all in the name of an ideology whose precepts are, at best, loosely grounded on selected factoids whilst ignoring others for the sake of an ideology which cannot tolerate the continued place in history of the various people and causes this flag represents to him.
                  The Confederate flag was a symbol of the war it flew over and the reason for the separation which I documented at the time. I haven't torn one down and I don't recall telling anyone else to, but it wouldn't disturb me to find all of it forming a reef in the Gulf of Mexico. The South has a great deal to take pride in. It doesn't need the faux glamor Hollywood slathered over a dark period and others ennobling it in the pursuit of a very different agenda.

                  That said, I just find it hilarious that TH is more than happy to erase from history any hint of an ideological windmill he has chosen to tilt at whist feigning indignation when his ideological ox gets gored.
                  Rather, I'm happy to see the factual, shameful period in our history relegated to museums and books to serve as a cautionary tale. And the only thing I'm feigning here is a modicum of respect for an opinion in defense of the indefensible, attempting to wrap the odious in the robes of your desired misadventure...well, shoot.
                  Last edited by Town Heretic; December 27th, 2015, 01:56 PM.
                  You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

                  Pro-Life






                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lon View Post
                    I'm not sure what the reference to the flag and its desecration is regarding. A lawyer is going to embrace what law allows to ensure all freedom, but will also believe it wrong to do so. Town often gets a lot of misunderstanding because of that.

                    Perhaps I'll let him field the difference. I think lawyers have to live with a dichotomy between 'freedom for all' and 'against my values' that the rest of us do not share. Should it be that way? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.

                    Lawyers come in four primary colors; defense attorneys, ambulance chasers, will/deed writers and prosecution (otherwise known as the dark side to the rest.) Dichotomies abound for such folks but are seldom embraced. I suppose it makes it easier to sleep that way. I dunno.

                    I think that 'removing the flag' vs. desecrating it are a bit different. You could make a copy of the ten commandments, for instance, and then dash them on the mountain side. Or make a flag and burn it. You cannot, however, damage them on public property. Is that the issue?
                    -Lon
                    My whole point in that now defunct thread was that our wouldbe societal manipulators ascribe different meanings to these symbols over time for their own purposes. They become strawmen to be burnt on the altar of public opinion for the purpose of manipulating said opinion. Most folks who rail against the ten commandments couldn't tell you what they say. In like manner most folks who rail against the stars and bars couldn't tell you what the many issues of the day were just, "Lincoln freed the slaves" and so now the stars and bars have become nothing more than an intellectual shorthand for societal bigotry in much the same way the ten commandments have become an intellectual shorthand for religious bigotry.

                    At least Neal Young was man enough to later be chagrined at his own gross oversimplifications of the south but I won't be holding my breath waiting for TH to do likewise.

                    P.S. If you happened to have read this before the edit, my apologies. I mistook you for another poster and his liberal agenda (in thread, the liberals want something, I think, different from what you seem to be addressing here and I wasn't changing gears to catch up to your specific concern which seems to be different. If not, it is a 'just in case' apology.
                    Nah, I often edit what I have written, sometimes extensively, and so I tend to let the dust settle before responding.
                    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, others just gargle.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
                      When you were 12 ?
                      The 80s were different.
                      "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                      Terence Mc Lean

                      [most will be very surprised]


                      Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                      By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by musterion View Post
                        I saw the Selected Factoids open for the Plastmatics in '81.
                        I was at the same concert! Shucks! we might have sat next to each other!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by musterion View Post
                          I saw the Selected Factoids open for the Plastmatics in '81.
                          Your new avatar ... is that Bigglesworth?
                          Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, others just gargle.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by fzappa13 View Post
                            Your new avatar ... is that Bigglesworth?
                            It's how I envision Granite, Artie, Alwight and a few others herebouts.
                            "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                            Terence Mc Lean

                            [most will be very surprised]


                            Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                            By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by fzappa13 View Post
                              Lawyers come in four primary colors; defense attorneys, ambulance chasers, will/deed writers and prosecution (otherwise known as the dark side to the rest.) Dichotomies abound for such folks but are seldom embraced. I suppose it makes it easier to sleep that way. I dunno.
                              So oversimplification is like an operating system for you then...curious. There are all sorts of lawyers. You could split them into civil and criminal, but that would only give you a general sense of application. The civil end has specialties like Social Security work, contracts of all sorts, tax law, family law, and so on.

                              Prosecutors aren't actually looked on, in the general scheme of things, as anything other than a part of the same system. I've worked with and battled with prosecutors and had a beer afterward. We tend to separate the job from the person. I understood that every sleezy deadbeat dad I went after needed to be represented and should be. I never thought less of the lawyer doing his job. No reasonable attorney would absent some ethically challenged and objectionable conduct.

                              Lawyers who engaged in living at the edge of that envelope eventually find themselves facing an angry judge and a course correction and/or run into a thousand paper cuts from the larger body of counsel once their habits become understood by it. So a fellow who almost has to be court ordered to release discovery and treats opposing counsel with a consistent contempt will find his practice hampered over time and his reputation sullied. If he strays too far he'll find worse.

                              My whole point in that now defunct thread was that our wouldbe societal manipulators ascribe different meanings to these symbols over time for their own purposes. They become strawmen to be burnt on the altar of public opinion for the purpose of manipulating said opinion.
                              Where my point was that symbols of evil intention and practice don't merit respect, no matter how they're repackaged. And flying a flag of a fallen, disgraced foe over a seat of government is as daft a notion as flying a Nazi flag in Berlin.

                              Most folks who rail against the ten commandments couldn't tell you what they say.
                              I don't think that's true, but I don't think it matters either. I've made my argument in support of those monuments.

                              In like manner most folks who rail against the stars and bars couldn't tell you what the many issues of the day were just, "Lincoln freed the slaves"
                              Immaterial if there's a credible argument from those who do. And there is, rather easily.

                              At least Neal Young was man enough to later be chagrined at his own gross oversimplifications of the south but I won't be holding my breath waiting for TH to do likewise.
                              Neil Young offered overly broad declarative condemnation and it was simple. That's mostly what you're doing here with your hand wave and declaration that others are simplifying, which is a little funny.

                              My arguments and documentation were specific in support of a fairly straight forward truth about my ancestors and land and I've always noted that the people who drove the war used a number of different motives to move the people they needed to fight it, but that at its heart was an immoral desire for the advancement of a right to human chattel and the racist mindset that allowed, justified and profited by it.

                              Playing the man card is a bit desperate. But so was that flag you admire...or want to have seen in a different light so that you can wave it in support of your cause, which isn't really about that flag at all.
                              You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

                              Pro-Life






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