ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

[RichRock]

It's a question. Rich apparently thinks its a valid criticism of protestants that we don't all go to church at the same time.

Yawn. Straw man fallacy yet again.:blabla:

 

[RichRock]

I really don't want to be ignorant.

Sometimes you just have to accept your destiny.

 

[Cruciform]

I really don't want to be ignorant. I'm following your links and learning a lot. Do you have a link to the Church's position on when double standards are ok and when they aren't?

Straw Man Fallacy. Come back when you come up with an actual argument.

 

[Cruciform]

According to that paper there are 242 among Roman Catholics alone. Your own source that you offered as a defense of your number says there are 242.

Go ahead and indicate exactly in the article where it states that there are Catholic "denominations."

 

[GuySmiley]

Go ahead and indicate exactly in the article where it states that there are Catholic "denominations."

From page 9

When you look at the chart you will see the 6 megablocs are 1) Orthodox, 2) Roman Catholic, 3) Aanglican, 4) Protestant, 5) Independent, 6) Marginal Christian. Together these groups made up 33,909 "denominations" (their word, not mine) in 2000 AD.

1) Orthodox broke with Rome around 1000 AD. They are a schism and in 2000 AD made up 764 of this number.

2) Roman Catholics make up 242 of this number but they are almost all in union with Rome just with names like Melkite, Maronite, etc.

3) Anglicans made up 168 "denominations." Though listed in a separate category than "Protestant" they can certainly be seen as "protestant" having broke from Rome in the same century as the followers of Luther and Calvin. However, their numbers are insignificant.

4) Protestants make up 8,973 "denominations." This category includes mainline Protestant groups like Baptists, Adventists, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc.

5) Independent Christian groups made up 22,148 "denominations'' and included groups like Independent Baptist, Plymouth Brethren, Independent Methodist, Independent Lutheran, Apostolic Congregations, Charismatic denominations, Pentecostal, other Adventists, Reformed Anglicans, Independent Reformed Presbyterian, Old Catholic, and many more (see the chart). Now, if you cut these out and say they are not "protestant" then my numbers are false. But even though they are listed as "Independent" they are every bit "protestant denominations." To say that one who counts these as "protestant denominations" are liars is quite disingenuous.

The author attempts to distant himself from the word by saying "their word, not mine"* but then goes on to accept the word when applied to protestants. That's a double standard. Ignoring the authors logical fallacy, he says there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations. He attempts to dismiss it by saying they all agree with Rome, but then makes no effort to say which protestant denominations agree with each other. That's a double standard.

Added in Edit: * the author also says "almost" all agree with Rome. And remember, the authors standard is that even one denomination is a tragedy.

Ignoring the double standards, we can apply the same reasoning to Catholics. By the way, its the same reasoning you apply to get your 50,000 number.

Note though, I don't even really care about different denominations. I don't think it matters, especially as the word "denomination" is used in your source. I don't think it hurts Catholics at all to say there are 1,500 denominations.

But I do think its ridiculous that you throw around this 50,000 number as an insult while at the same time refuse to recognize the same logic applied to the Catholics.

 

[Cruciform]

The author attempts to distant himself from the word by saying "their word, not mine"*...

Of course he does, since Christ's one historic Church is in fact the original Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and so simply cannot be rightly termed a "denomination" or "sect."

...but then goes on to accept the word when applied to protestants.

...and appropriately so, since the tens-of-thousands of non-Catholic denominations and sects are just that, having splintered and separated from Christ's one historic Catholic Church over the past five centuries, since the 16th-century Protestant Rebellion.

That's a double standard.

Nope. (See above.)


So much for your completely nonsensical attempt to apply the term "denomination" to Christ's one historic Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[GuySmiley]

Of course he does, since Christ's one historic Church is in fact the original Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and so simply cannot be rightly termed a "denomination" or "sect."

But he doesn't, because even in his hand waving dismissal of the 242 denominations he had enough integrity to say "almost," so even your source disagrees with you.

So much for your completely nonsensical attempt to apply the term "denomination" to Christ's one historic Church.

I didn't apply it, your source did.

 

[Cruciform]

I didn't apply it, your source did.

No, the non-Catholic source he was referencing did. Learn how to read.

 

[Angel4Truth]

so
you don't need a church
you don't need a pastor
you don't need a bible
you don't need tol

what are you doing here?

Which has nothing to do with what i said and asked.

 

[Nihilo]

I go against Protestants.

True. There is nothing preventing a protestant from "going against" other protestants. That's actually part of being protestant. They eat their young.

Do you know what Jesus says about a house divided against itself?

That house cannot stand.

Protestantism isn't a house, divided or otherwise. It is a headless corpus.

God’s Truth is found by getting Jesus’ teachings and obeying them.

Agreed.

The Catholics do not have God’s Truth because they go against His teachings.

Disagreed.

There is no such thing as “Apostolic Succession”.

Patently false, even if the Church is making it all up.

Catholics teach that their Popes are that of “Apostolic Succession.”

I think I know what you're trying to say, but this sentence is unclear to me.

Apostolic Succession is the unbroken line of succession beginning with the apostles to that of the Pope.

And to all the other bishops.

There is no such command in the Bible as “Apostolic Succession.”

What does "the laying on of hands" mean for us today? What did it mean in the New Testament? It is mentioned a lot. Doesn't it mean a transfer of teaching authority? Which is, the bishops' particular job?

There is no such command, none. That is a manufactured belief. Catholics claim Apostolic Succession from apostle Peter.

For the Pope in particular, yes.

However, the word of God tells us of no such thing; God’s word forbids us to have favoritism over the apostles.

Keys transfer to successors, representing authority, representing an office, a seat. That's normal.

Even if the keys don't transfer though, in order for Matthew 16:18-19 to mean anything, St. Peter must have set all this in motion while he still lived . . . the made-up appearance of succession included!

1 Corinthians 1:11-12 My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness“; 20and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

What other Church claims to follow specifically one or more of the original 12 Apostles? (St. Paul being the 12th.) The Coptics follow St. Mark (not original 12). The Russian Orthodox claims St. Andrew (dubious IMO, but hey . . .). Is there anyone else?

It's not like how you're portraying. People aren't saying, "I follow Peter," "I follow Paul," "I follow . . . ." OK. Actually people are saying things like that.

Just not, "I follow Peter." That specifically is not what anybody is saying.

You believe men who gave themselves the authority.

I believe -- as you do! -- that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant Word of God. Therefore, I am -- and you are! -- Catholic.

You cannot hide behind your denomination.

I ain't hidin.'

 

[GuySmiley]

No, the non-Catholic source he was referencing did. Learn how to read.

But he still said there is more than one Catholic denomination. He said there was 242, but due to his disagreement with the non-Catholic source, he game most of them a pass. Not all though, he still admits there is more than one.

What do you think about the 242 different Roman Catholic denominations? Do you think "all" of them agree with Rome, or only "almost all" like the author?

 

[God's Truth]

True. There is nothing preventing a protestant from "going against" other protestants. That's actually part of being protestant. They eat their young.

I have the same beliefs as Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

If I were a protestant then I would say so.

That house cannot stand.

Protestantism isn't a house, divided or otherwise. It is a headless corpus.

Would you like to know what the Catholics do with their headless corpus?

Patently false, even if the Church is making it all up.

Do you not know what you say?

What does "the laying on of hands" mean for us today? What did it mean in the New Testament? It is mentioned a lot. Doesn't it mean a transfer of teaching authority? Which is, the bishops' particular job?

The Bible forbids favoritism over the Apostles.

Keys transfer to successors, representing authority, representing an office, a seat. That's normal.

Even if the keys don't transfer though, in order for Matthew 16:18-19 to mean anything, St. Peter must have set all this in motion while he still lived . . . the made-up appearance of succession included!

We are not to follow made up doctrines from men.

I want to say that at least you are doing what no other Catholics have done here, and that is to try to respond to the scriptures and explanations that I give.

What other Church claims to follow specifically one or more of the original 12 Apostles? (St. Paul being the 12th.)

Where do you get that Paul is the 12th?

The Coptics follow St. Mark (not original 12). The Russian Orthodox claims St. Andrew (dubious IMO, but hey . . .). Is there anyone else?

It's not like how you're portraying. People aren't saying, "I follow Peter," "I follow Paul," "I follow . . . ." OK. Actually people are saying things like that.

Just not, "I follow Peter." That specifically is not what anybody is saying.

Can you not see how you are twisting God’s Truth?

I believe -- as you do! -- that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant Word of God. Therefore, I am -- and you are! -- Catholic.

I am not Catholic.
I belong to the body of Christ.
The Catholic denomination has introduced many false doctrines.

I ain't hidin.'

Then read what God’s word says and believe it.

 

[Cruciform]

But he still said there is more than one Catholic denomination. He said there was 242, but due to his disagreement with the non-Catholic source, he game most of them a pass. Not all though, he still admits there is more than one. What do you think about the 242 different Roman Catholic denominations? Do you think "all" of them agree with Rome, or only "almost all" like the author?

Already answered (Posts #706 and #708).

 

[chrysostom]

I am not Catholic.
I belong to the body of Christ.

everyone belongs to the Body of Christ
so
why don't you believe this?

 

[RichRock]

Rich Rock:

In your conversion (as well as afterwards), you may find that a daily rosary (at least 5 decades) will be of great help.

Hi, today I treated myself to 2 things:

1. New bible, Catholic NRSV. Good to see the apocryphal books interspaced throughout the Old Testament instead of cumped between the two Testaments.

2. A Rosary. Looking forward to learning and using

 

[RichRock]

Apocrypha:
This is something else this protestant learnt a while ago whilst researching the Catholic Church. I always presumed the Apocrypha were spurious additions and uninspired, therefore rejected post reformation by the protestant movement.
However, looking at this in more detail I discovered that these books had been part of canon until the Reformation in the sixteenth century.
Protestants have adopted the Jewish canon of the Old Testament, which was established at the end of the first century of the Common Era. This canon includes ONLY those books that were written in Hebrew and Aramaic. In addition to these books, however, Catholics, following the ANCIENT TRADITION of the Christian Church also hold the Dueterocanonical books of the Old Testament to be sacred and inspired....and therefore canonical.
Interesting to note that the King James bible originally contained the Apocryphal Books too.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Hi, today I treated myself to 2 things:

1. New bible, Catholic NRSV. Good to see the apocryphal books interspaced throughout the Old Testament instead of cumped between the two Testaments.

2. A Rosary. Looking forward to learning and using

Today i rested in the freedom of Christ and enjoyed being clothed in His righteousness and direct relationship without anyone else in between us.

 

[God's Truth]

everyone belongs to the Body of Christ
so
why don't you believe this?

Give up the falseness that the Catholics teach. Obey Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi, today I treated myself to 2 things:

1. New bible, Catholic NRSV. Good to see the apocryphal books interspaced throughout the Old Testament instead of cumped between the two Testaments.

2. A Rosary. Looking forward to learning and using

The Catholic Bible with the extra books does not support the Catholic teachings.

Why would you pray the rosary if you have Jesus living inside you?

 

[Nihilo]

I have the same beliefs as Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

As all Christians do, we all have the mind of Christ.

If I were a protestant then I would say so.

We've had this discussion before, and I've narrowed down the options since then, from three to two. A Christian is either Catholic, or protestant. The Orthodox are indistinguishable from protestants to me, and you're not Orthodox anyway. You either accept Christ's supreme pastor, or you reject him. Catholic or protestant.

Would you like to know what the Catholics do with their headless corpus?

The visible Body of Christ is not headless, so I'm sure I don't understand your offer here.

Do you not know what you say?

No.

The Bible forbids favoritism over the Apostles.

The Apostles all taught the same thing. The primacy of St. Peter.

We are not to follow made up doctrines from men.

Of course not.

I want to say that at least you are doing what no other Catholics have done here, and that is to try to respond to the scriptures and explanations that I give.

Um . . . you're welcome?

Where do you get that Paul is the 12th?

Jesus himself personally commissioned the original 12 Apostles.

Can you not see how you are twisting God’s Truth?

Maybe you should enlighten me?

I am not Catholic.

If you're Christian you're Catholic & our home is our home.

I belong to the body of Christ.
The Catholic denomination has introduced many false doctrines.

I know you see it that way. I don't.

I do appreciate your keeping your arguments focused on the teaching, and not dwelling on sins. She is perfect in teaching, but not in action, being composed of sinners.

Then read what God’s word says and believe it.

I do.