ECT The Land Promise the LORD Gave To David

[Jerry Shugart]

In the 19th century there were a number of heretical doctrines introduced...John Darby (1800 -1882)

The Preterists and those who want to write their own version of the Bible (mostly the OT) hate the Dispensationalists because they interpret the OT prophecies in the same way that those who originally received the OT understood them.

Dispensationalits believe that the words which the LORD employed when communicating to the Jews in OT times were sufficient to express His thought which He wanted the Jews to understand.

Those who try to put down the Dispensationalists do so because the Dispensationalists are spoiling their fun by criticizing their ungodly methods of putting foreign meanings on the OT prophecies.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

People are so easily deceived by smart men who lay on their beds devising evil--

You have been deceived by dumb men!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The same plans for all men, depending on whether they believe in Christ and those who do not.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.






This occurred first, and is ongoing since Christs first coming--

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger,(John the baptizer) and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant,(Jesus) whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.




The third part began the early church 2000 years ago.

The end of the churches age is described in Rev, in the trumpets one to four--

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Mic 3:5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Mic 3:6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
Mic 3:7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God.




That began leading up to the first coming and accomplished by Christ with the early church.

It is known as salvation.

Why do you not know it?

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is known as salvation.

You reject what the LORD has revealed to the houses of Israel and Judahconcering what willhappen to those houses in the future because you have no place for those things in your made-up eschatology. You just flat out refuse to believe God about the destiny of those two houses. however, it is those who "believe God" who are justified in His sight:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).​

If I were you I would worry less about your man-made eschatology and begin to actually believe the LORD, especially what He says about the destinty of the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper!

 

[northwye]

Judah is mentioned many times in the Old Testament, but only once in the New Testament. And in the New Testament when Judah is mentioned it is a quote in Hebrews 8: 8 from Jeremiah 31: 31.

In the Book of Acts Israel is mentioned 51 times. And in Acts Jew is used 8 times. And Jews appear 71 times.

Five times in the Book of Acts Peter, Gamaliel, and Paul address the Jews - those of Israel - as "Men of Israel," never as "Men of Judah."

But many of the Jews at the time Acts focuses on probably had ancestors who were in the Southern kingdom of Judah and not in the northern kingdom of Israel.

There appears to be no distinction in the Book of Acts between those Jews whose ancestors were from Israel and those whose ancestors were from Judah. In Acts "Jews" and "Israel" often referred to the same people.

The Judah-Israel distinction is part of history, but not a distinction made in the First century in Acts.

Claiming that because an Old Testament text makes a distinction between Judah and Israel means that now in 2017 Israel and Judah remain two different houses is like someone claiming that in North America there is now a United States government and a Confederate government because that was true once in history.

 

[Danoh]

Judah is mentioned many times in the Old Testament, but only once in the New Testament. And in the New Testament when Judah is mentioned it is a quote in Hebrews 8: 8 from Jeremiah 31: 31.

In the Book of Acts Israel is mentioned 51 times. And in Acts Jew is used 8 times. And Jews appear 71 times.

Five times in the Book of Acts Peter, Gamaliel, and Paul address the Jews - those of Israel - as "Men of Israel," never as "Men of Judah."

But many of the Jews at the time Acts focuses on probably had ancestors who were in the Southern kingdom of Judah and not in the northern kingdom of Israel.

There appears to be no distinction in the Book of Acts between those Jews whose ancestors were from Israel and those whose ancestors were from Judah. In Acts "Jews" and "Israel" often referred to the same people.

The Judah-Israel distinction is part of history, but not a distinction made in the First century in Acts.

Claiming that because an Old Testament text makes a distinction between Judah and Israel means that now in 2017 Israel and Judah remain two different houses is like someone claiming that in North America there is now a United States government and a Confederate government because that was true once in history.

I agree SOMEWHAT with your above post, but for its' last two paragraphs.

You appear oblivious to the intended sense of "Jerusalem (area of some of the Twelved tribes of Israel), Judaea, and Samaria (area of other of the Twelve Tribes of Israel), and unto the uttermost parts of the world" (that vast, than Roman Empire that many Israelites from the Twelve Tribes were scattered throughout).

The intent of said mission (Luke 24 meant to end up at Isaiah 2) of which the LORD had planned on setting aside "for a season" or "until the fulness of" NOT The Twelve Tribes" BUT "of The GENTILES be come" Acts 13:11, Rom. 11:25.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You reject what the LORD has revealed to the houses of Israel and Judahconcering what willhappen to those houses in the future because you have no place for those things in your made-up eschatology. You just flat out refuse to believe God about the destiny of those two houses. however, it is those who "believe God" who are justified in His sight:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).​

If I were you I would worry less about your man-made eschatology and begin to actually believe the LORD, especially what He says about the destinty of the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper!

The houses of Judah and of Israel were joined together by the cross through the believers receiving the Spirit from Pentecost onward under the new covenant in Acts 2.

The first Christians were all Jews from many nations who became one nation under God by the Spirit,
all in the same tree of Rom.ch 11 with gentiles grafted in and unbelievers broken off.

This is why Peter wrote--

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Peter had no query about who the 144000 of Rev.ch 7 were, but only of the great multitude, for they are those promised to Abraham through the one seed Christ.

Looks like you inherit nothing.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The houses of Judah and of Israel were joined together by the cross through the believers receiving the Spirit from Pentecost onward under the new covenant in Acts 2.

This prophecy tells us when those two houses will be joined together:

"Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever" (Ez.37:19-25).​

When they will be joined together they will be in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will dwell there for ever.

That has never happened in the past so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

 

[andyc]

If you are right then we must believe that Paul, who was a physical descendant of Abraham Israel, is not a child of God.

However, the Scriptures reveal that he is:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Ro.8:16).​

Philippians3:3-14 clears that up.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

This prophecy tells us when those two houses will be joined together:

"Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever

When they will be joined together they will be in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will dwell there for ever.

That has never happened in the past so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.​

Read it this way--

"Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever" (Ez.37:19-25).​

Presently the flesh children of Israel ARE the heathen.

Israel of the Spirit are the beloved of God.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

So your theory that God will save all the flesh seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, is a pack of lies.

LA

 

[northwye]

"Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

So your theory that God will save all the flesh seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, is a pack of lies."

That should be Romans 11: 5.

What Galatians 3 says makes it impossible for Israel after the flesh who have not accepted Christ to be a people of God, when Paul wrote, now or in the future.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?...........Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect..........For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

What happens to those of Israel after the flesh who have rejected Christ?

Luke quotes Deuteronomy 18: 18-19 in Acts 3: 22-23, "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

Romans 11: 17-20: "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

Those of Israel after the flesh who were in unbelief were broken off.

Christian Zionists, though, would have scripture to contradict itself - to say one thing in one context and the direct opposite in another context - so that they can use some scriptures to claim their theories are true. For example, Paul says by revelation, in Romans 11: 20 that those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were cut off, agreeing with Acts 3: 23, quoting Deuteronomy 18: 19, though not in the wording of Deuteronomy 18: 19 in the Hebrew Masoretic Text, which was created at a time after Luke wrote Acts. In disagreement with what Paul says in Romans 11: 20, the Christian Zionists insist that in Romans 11: 26 All Israel has to be all Israel after the flesh, all of the physical bloodline which Galatians 3 says was replaced by that which from Abraham is spiritual. Remember II Corinthians 3: 6, "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So your theory that God will save all the flesh seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, is a pack of lies.

I never said that. I quoted Jereemiah 31:31-34 where it says that there will come a time when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belonging to the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be saved.

Due to your unbelief you deny what is so plain in those verses.

And now you just IGNORE the fact that when the house of Israel and house of Judah will be made one they will be in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will remain there for ever!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So your theory that God will save all the flesh seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, is a pack of lies."

I never said that. Instead, I quoted Jereemiah 31:31-34 where it says that there will come a time when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belonging to the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be saved. And all I hear from the presterists is a denial that will ever happen!

 

[marhig]

I never said that. I quoted Jereemiah 31:31-34 where it says that there will come a time when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belonging to the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be saved.

Due to your unbelief you deny what is so plain in those verses.

And now you just IGNORE the fact that when the house of Israel and house of Judah will be made one they will be in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will remain there for ever!

I haven't read all this thread, but looking at this post can I ask you something please?

I have been told that because I don't believe in the trinity that I'm not going to be saved, yet I love God and Christ Jesus from my heart. So what I'm wondering is, by the way you all believe regarding the trinity and because it also says in the Bible that we are to also believe that Jesus is the son of God, how will the Jews be saved according to many of you here who say that they will be, if they don't believe in either the trinity or Jesus?

Your all quite willing to call others who believe in Jesus as unsaved, but you say that those Jews who neither believe in the trinity or Jesus will be saved?

How does that work? Thanks

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I haven't read all this thread, but looking at this post can I ask you something please?

If you want to discuss the Trinity then start another thread and I will answer your questions. But that is not the subject of this thread and I do not want that subject to be derailed. I hope you understand.

Thanks!

 

[God's Truth]

I never said that. I quoted Jereemiah 31:31-34 where it says that there will come a time when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belonging to the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be saved.

Due to your unbelief you deny what is so plain in those verses.

And now you just IGNORE the fact that when the house of Israel and house of Judah will be made one they will be in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will remain there for ever!

All become one in the body of Christ.

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

[marhig]

If you want to discuss the Trinity then start another thread and I will answer your questions. But that is not the subject of this thread and I do not want that subject to be derailed. I hope you understand.

Thanks!

Jerry I'm not talking about the trinity, your saying that the physical descendents of Abraham will be saved, and I'm asking how will they be saved if they don't believe in the trinity, which according to you and others here is something that is essential to believe to be saved, and they don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So how can the physical descents of Abraham be saved without believing in the trinity or believing that Jesus is the son of God?

 

[God's Truth]

This prophecy tells us when those two houses will be joined together:

"Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever" (Ez.37:19-25).​

When they will be joined together they will be in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will dwell there for ever.

That has never happened in the past so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

What don't you get that the country from heaven is what is being fulfilled?

Hebrews 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

 

[God's Truth]

Jerry I'm not talking about the trinity, your saying that the physical descendents of Abraham will be saved, and I'm asking how will they be saved if they don't believe in the trinity, which according to you and others here is something that is essential to believe to be saved, and they don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So how can the physical descents of Abraham be saved without believing in the trinity or believing that Jesus is the son of God?

Their is no way the Jews can be saved when Jesus comes back because when he comes back it will be as a thief in the night and it will NOT be to bear sin. So how is someone saved without Jesus bearing their sin?! There is no saving by then.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[marhig]

Their is no way the Jews can be saved when Jesus comes back because when he comes back it will be as a thief in the night and it will NOT be to bear sin. So how is someone saved without Jesus bearing their sin?! There is no saving by then.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

GT even though I believe differently to you I know that no-one can be saved without our Lord Jesus Christ.

So I'm wondering, how do those who believe that the Jews who are physical descents of Abraham will be saved, if they don't believe in the trinity (which they say is essential)and they don't believe that Jesus is the son of God.