Saved are you?

[SOTK]

what then might it mean?

As I have said in a few other threads, some Christians will still stumble, or more to the point, their physical selves will stumble. As Christians, our identity should always be in Christ. We should never place our identity in sin and/or the world. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If you do not place your identity in Christ, you will not be righteous nor pure. Saying that Christians sin is wrong. Saying that Christians can sin and still remain saved is not Biblical. Christ conquered sin. Do you believe that Christ should re-crucify your old sin nature over and over and over again? Or was once good enough?

I say that He did it once and that I no longer sin. I can't because my old sin nature is gone. It doesn't exist any longer.

Back to your question, it means what I said above about recognizing our Identity in Christ. If we do not do this, we aren't recognizing that we are already pure and righteous.

 

[koban]

yes, as i said before, it's impossible to stop sinning before you are saved.



yes. salvation is by grace (unearned and undeserved) through faith, not by works.

:thumb:

 

[elohiym]

...when you are saved, you should repent of your sins. but repentence is a process, not something instant.

Can you briefly describe your understanding of repentance?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

first you say he "is saved" then you say "still be saved" which seems to say he isn't saved. which is it?

I disagree with your conclusion. A person who continues to sin in spite of grace is grieving the Holy Spirit. That is the unpardonable sin.

that's not the unpardonable sin at all! the unpardonable sin was attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of the devil. it was saying that Jesus was casting out demons, by the power of the devil.

I hope you never teach a child molester that he will still be saved even if he "stumbles" again, because such a view would result in children being molested.

saying that they will yet be saved doesn't mean i would approve of their works! i would clearly condemn what they do. also, just because they will be saved in the end does not mean God would not allow certain things to happen to them in this lifetime in order to get them refocused on him. judgement starts in the house of God.

He should be told that there is a criminal penalty for what he does,

Jesus paid the penalty for all sins, right?

and if he wants to exchange his life for the righteousness of God, then he cannot take the LORD's name in vain by claiming to be saved and raping children at the same time.

so Jesus only saved us up the point where we accepted him? is that what you mean? that he doesn't cover anything new? he cleanses you one time and then you're on your own? are you really saying that?

 

[elohiym]

So like if the guy is molesting me, are you claiming that he could be in the process of repentance?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

As I have said in a few other threads, some Christians will still stumble, or more to the point, their physical selves will stumble. As Christians, our identity should always be in Christ. We should never place our identity in sin and/or the world. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If you do not place your identity in Christ, you will not be righteous nor pure. Saying that Christians sin is wrong. Saying that Christians can sin and still remain saved is not Biblical. Christ conquered sin. Do you believe that Christ should re-crucify your old sin nature over and over and over again? Or was once good enough?

I say that He did it once and that I no longer sin. I can't because my old sin nature is gone. It doesn't exist any longer.

Back to your question, it means what I said above about recognizing our Identity in Christ. If we do not do this, we aren't recognizing that we are already pure and righteous.

hmm, i don't see how any of that explains what the verse means? that's really what i was going for. i do agree with what you said that christians don't sin and that our identity is in Christ, which is why i am interested in what you think that verse is actually saying.

 

[koban]

No. We are born Children of Wrath from the womb and are attracted to our master, Satan. It's impossible to be without sin without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

:thumb:

Again, how can believers sin if Christ crucified our sin natures on the Cross? Which way is it? Did Christ conquer sin or not?

Apparently (according to my (perhaps flawed) understanding of Elohiym's position), He only crucified the sin natures in our reborn spirit. This "dead" body we drag around in still has the propensity to sin. Of course, it doesn't really count as sin, because it's dead, and it doesn't matter anyways, because it's not really us. :dizzy:

 

[SOTK]

hmm, i don't see how any of that explains what the verse means? that's really what i was going for. i do agree with what you said that christians don't sin and that our identity is in Christ, which is why i am interested in what you think that verse is actually saying.

Okay. Let me read it again and think about it.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

So like if the guy is molesting me, are you claiming that he could be in the process of repentance?

yes, though at the moment he is failing it. what i meant by "process" is that it takes time, the work of God, and the cooperation of the individual. you do not just one day get saved and never sin again. no, you get saved, commit yourself to not sinning and accept God's help every step of the way. you will still fall occasionally, you will still mess up. but because of your committment, you get up, remind yourself of who you serve and what he wants, and decide not to do it again. that's what's meant by repentence being a process.

 

[elohiym]

first you say he "is saved" then you say "still be saved" which seems to say he isn't saved. which is it?

I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

Which is to say...

Can he contniue to sin, like rape children, and still be a child of God?

that's not the unpardonable sin at all! the unpardonable sin was attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of the devil. it was saying that Jesus was casting out demons, by the power of the devil.

We can agree to disagree on that. Maybe another thread sometime.

saying that they will yet be saved doesn't mean i would approve of their works! i would clearly condemn what they do.

I'm glad you don't approve of their works. How would you condemn their works? Would you call the police?

also, just because they will be saved in the end does not mean God would not allow certain things to happen to them in this lifetime in order to get them refocused on him. judgement starts in the house of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?" John says someone born of God doesn't do that. So, I guess it really is "by their fruits ye shall know them."

Jesus paid the penalty for all sins, right?

Yes, but my point is that there is a criminal penalty for child molestation, too.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

so Jesus only saved us up the point where we accepted him?

No. He saved us at the point we accepted him, and accepting him means doing what he states and repenting from sin completely. Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?

is that what you mean? that he doesn't cover anything new? he cleanses you one time and then you're on your own? are you really saying that?

No. He cleanses you one time forever, and then He and the Father dwell in you, and you dwell in them. You are certainly not on your own.

 

[elohiym]

As I have said in a few other threads, some Christians will still stumble, or more to the point, their physical selves will stumble. As Christians, our identity should always be in Christ. We should never place our identity in sin and/or the world. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If you do not place your identity in Christ, you will not be righteous nor pure. Saying that Christians sin is wrong. Saying that Christians can sin and still remain saved is not Biblical. Christ conquered sin. Do you believe that Christ should re-crucify your old sin nature over and over and over again? Or was once good enough?

I say that He did it once and that I no longer sin. I can't because my old sin nature is gone. It doesn't exist any longer.

:first:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

Which is to say...

Can he contniue to sin, like rape children, and still be a child of God?

yes, that is what grace is all about--being saved when you don't deserve it.

We can agree to disagree on that. Maybe another thread sometime.

Mark 3 may be of interest to you on that subject.

I'm glad you don't approve of their works. How would you condemn their works? Would you call the police?

they would need to do something legally wrong before i called the police. if it was something morally wrong, but not legally wrong, then i would speak to them face to face, show them where the bible stated it was wrong and tell them to repent.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?"

no.

James 1
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

John says someone born of God doesn't do that. So, I guess it really is "by their fruits ye shall know them."

John also said we must keep the law. do you believe we are under law? and yes, you can tell if a person knows Christ by how they live their life. if they continually sin without remorse, they do not know Him. if they sin only now and then, feeling much remorse when they do sin, then it's safe to say they know Him.

Yes, but my point is that there is a criminal penalty for child molestation, too.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

that pertains to this life, here on earth, not before God in the next.

No. He saved us at the point we accepted him, and accepting him means doing what he states and repenting from sin completely. Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?

where are you quoting from?

No. He cleanses you one time forever, and then He and the Father dwell in you, and you dwell in them. You are certainly not on your own.

then how can you ever say someone could lose salvation? or do you believe that once you are saved you are incapacitated with regards to sinning? that is, it is impossible for you to ever do anything sinful after you have been saved?

 

[elohiym]

Apparently (according to my (perhaps flawed) understanding of Elohiym's position), He only crucified the sin natures in our reborn spirit.

The spirit we are reborn with is God's spirit. A spirit is not carnal, and does not have a sin nature. That is our carnal mind with the sin nature, the old man that is crucified, the one who didn't want to stop eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This "dead" body we drag around in still has the propensity to sin.

But because it has that propensity, it has been slain by the law. As Paul stated, the law slew him. Once dead, the law has no more effect on a dead body, like Paul said. No law, no transgression of the law; no transgression of the law, no sin, like Paul said.

Cursing when you smash your finger isn't a sin, as some may think. Drinking a glass of wine to get a buzz isn't a sin, as some may think. People tend to pick and choose what they consider sin, and they tend to add things that could never be considered sin according to the letter of the law. That is how it becomes a yoke, and why it is bondage. How about we just walk with God our Father together in the cool of the day, eating from every tree but one.

Of course, it doesn't really count as sin, because it's dead, and it doesn't matter anyways, because it's not really us. :dizzy:

That is why it sounds like foolishness to those who are perishing; but you are not perishing because YOU were baptized into Christ, and you are free from sin totally including the stain of sin. Right?

 

[Charity]

Your either in your sins or out of them, he sepertates your sin from you as far as the east is to the west by grace,
Righteousness depends on faith,
The flesh will not enter the kingdom, only the soul
.Theres no need to try saving flesh, but it will be put to death as we renew our minds.
Romans 4.4 Now him that worketh is the reward not rekconed of grace, but of dept.

charity

 

[koban]

The spirit we are reborn with is God's spirit. A spirit is not carnal, and does not have a sin nature. That is our carnal mind with the sin nature, the old man that is crucified, the one who didn't want to stop eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But because it has that propensity, it has been slain by the law. As Paul stated, the law slew him. Once dead, the law has no more effect on a dead body, like Paul said. No law, no transgression of the law; no transgression of the law, no sin, like Paul said.

Cursing when you smash your finger isn't a sin, as some may think. Drinking a glass of wine to get a buzz isn't a sin, as some may think. People tend to pick and choose what they consider sin, and they tend to add things that could never be considered sin according to the letter of the law. That is how it becomes a yoke, and why it is bondage. How about we just walk with God our Father together in the cool of the day, eating from every tree but one.


That is why it sounds like foolishness to those who are perishing; but you are not perishing because YOU were baptized into Christ, and you are free from sin totally including the stain of sin. Right?

Sure Elohiym - it's a Zen thing - I sin, but I don't sin.

Depends which I you're talking about.

This concept too easily lends itself to abuse.

 

[SOTK]

hmm, i don't see how any of that explains what the verse means? that's really what i was going for. i do agree with what you said that christians don't sin and that our identity is in Christ, which is why i am interested in what you think that verse is actually saying.

1 Timothy 5:20-22
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. 22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.

Okay, GIT, I went back and read the verse again. Actually, I read the entire chapter. The entire chapter is about Church conduct. The scripture quoted above is specifically about Church Elders and how they are to be treated and also how Elders are to conduct themselves. "Doing nothing with partiality" stands out to me. An Elder should be above reproach. An Elder should be pure. I do not think the Elder is supposed to get caught up in the sins of new church attendees nor quick to lay hands on a believer to make a new elder. Thought and discernment should come before the Elder taking action on anything.

The Message 1 Timothy 5:22

22Don't appoint people to church leadership positions too hastily. If a person is involved in some serious sins, you don't want to become an unwitting accomplice. In any event, keep a close check on yourself.

There is no indication in The Message, KJV, NKJV, NLT, or the NIV that "others" or "person(s)" refers to believers. Usually, the term Elect is used to describe the Believers within the New Testament. I notice that it is not used here. :think:

At any rate, I do not think this scripture is glaring enough to cause me to believe that Christians sin.

 

[elohiym]

I asked: Can he contniue to sin, like rape children, and still be a child of God?

yes, that is what grace is all about--being saved when you don't deserve it.

I disagree with your conclusion.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1 John 2:9

The person who rapes a child, hates a child. It should be a bumper sticker!

Would you claim that what John stated doesn't apply to this dispensation? Sounds like a general principle of salvation to me.


I asked: Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?"

no.

James 1
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

What is his lust, but covetousness?

...for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

So if you're lusting, you're coveting, according to Paul. All sin is of the devil, so the wicked one is certainly touching a child molester while he is in the act of raping.

John also said we must keep the law.

So? Paul did, too. Here's one example:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Corinthians 14:34

So do you think he is telling them to keep that command, or break it?

do you believe we are under law?

Nope. To be under the law would mean that my righteousness depended upon me keeping the letter of the law, which is what the old covenant with was.

and yes, you can tell if a person knows Christ by how they live their life. if they continually sin without remorse, they do not know Him. if they sin only now and then, feeling much remorse when they do sin, then it's safe to say they know Him.

I disagree. See above.

I stated: Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?

where are you quoting from?

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

then how can you ever say someone could lose salvation?

I don't.

or do you believe that once you are saved you are incapacitated with regards to sinning?

I haven't lost my free wil, if that is what you are implying.

that is, it is impossible for you to ever do anything sinful after you have been saved?

It is impossible for a person in Christ to sin. A person in Christ is saved. There is no sin in Christ.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

So if we are in him, and in him is no sin, how can we possibly be sinning while in him? It's just not possible. Thankfully.

 

[elohiym]

Sure Elohiym - it's a Zen thing - I sin, but I don't sin.

Depends which I you're talking about.

So who are YOU? Are you the old man still, or are you a reborn child of God?

This concept too easily lends itself to abuse.

I disagree.

The concept of sin lends itself easily to abuse.

 

[elohiym]

It's late. I gotta crash.

Peace all. :wave:

 

[koban]

So who are YOU? Are you the old man still, or are you a reborn child of God?

I am both. I have to be, as long as I exist in this earth bound body. Can you separate the actions of one from the other?

I disagree.

I know you do.

The concept of sin lends itself easily to abuse.

The concept of forgiving sin lends itself easily to abuse. Nobody said it was going to be easy.