Yep.
A distinguishing factor in the difference between faith with works (kingdom) and faith without works (BOC).
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A distinguishing factor in the difference between faith with works (kingdom) and faith without works (BOC).
Non responsive. The 12 could do that.
Why Paul?
You do not know what "the mystery" is, do you, old timer, and its purpose? Rhetorical q.
Jer "it all says the same thing" Peepers refuses to distinguish between prophecy, i.e, what God had spoken of by the mouth of His prophets since the world began, and mystery, what God kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21 KJV vs. Rom 16:25 KJV). Jerry sells blenders in Mexico, and blending mystery truth, with the message prophesied to Israel has led to confusion, the prime example being the Roman Catholic Organization.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So all of those who heard and believed the gospel which Paul preached were members of the Body of Christ? Well, that is exactly the same gospel which those who received Peter's first epistle believed. Peter told them:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
And here is the gospel of which Peter spoke and it is exactly the same gospel which Paul preached:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
That is the heart and soul of the gospel of grace which Paul preached, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:4).
Paul's teaching was centered on the crucifixion, and Peter speaks of that here:
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).
So why do you say that those who received Peter's epistles were not in the Body of Christ since they heard and believed the gospel which was not even revealed until Paul?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What is "the mystery," big shot?
Pretty sure he asked you first...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So why should anyone believe that works were necessary for salvation for those who lived under the law with the following words of the Apostle Paul in view?:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
Why should anyone believe that Peter could not be saved apart from works with his following words in view?:
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
-DELETED-
Because the dispensation given to the Twelve for salvation was "Works (+ grace)," (which was really just Grace) whereas the dispensation given to Paul for salvation was/is "Faith + no works (though works will come through/be a result of faith)." (Contrast James 2:24 with Romans 4:5)
The dispensation given to those in the future who will be living during the GT on earth who believe (Hebrews-Revelation) will once again "works + grace."
You can add grace to works, but you can't add works to grace, because then it becomes just works.
You still don't get how Christ can have two separate sheepfolds in which He is the one Shepherd of two separate groups of folks.
Both folds were His sheep, but those folds were separate from each other.
Likewise, Christ can be the one ruler of both Israel and the BOC, even though they are separate groups of folks.
One Christ with separate groups treated separately and not as a whole.
We use the term BOC just to distinguish between the two groups of GOD's people - Israel and the BOC.
That does not mean that every place the word "body" is used means it is the BOC.
For instance:
In Mat 5:29-30 is in reference to the kingdom body of people, not the BOC body of people.
Members can be cut off from the kingdom body of people.
Members cannot be cut off from the BOC body of people.
Baptized into the body of Christ does not have to mean the BOC as MAD's define the BOC.
"BOC" is just a common term of phrase we MADs have come to use.
There could be a better term to use, but it has become so commonplace here at TOL that we have grown to expect folks to know what we mean by it, and not take the term word for word literally as being the only body (group) of people Christ has.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
By the time when the Hebrew epistles were written their teaching had changed. For instance the Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from the law:
"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).
In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:
"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).
That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:
"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).
If Peter was not using the words "free" and "liberty" in the same sense that Paul used them then he was using them in another sense. In what "sense" might that be?
"Free" from what? "Liberty" from what?
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They shouldn't.
Works were never a means of salvation to eternal life.
But to remain in the kingdom works were required to remain in that kingdom.
Remember Moses not being allowed into the promised land because of something he did (works)?
He was separated from the nation of Israel that was going into the promised land.
But that did not mean Moses lost eternal life.
That had to be a real eye opener for the Israel that did go into the promised land.
Holy moly!
If the great Moses could be excluded from going into the promised land with the nation of Israel, they had really better stay on their toes if they didn't want to be separated also.
It's almost as if they were given a big heads-up along the lines of ...... For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You cannot handle the meat, Mr. Peepers, until you understand:
If the mystery was in prophecy, then it ceases to be a mystery.
You blend prophecy, in Hebrews-Rev., with the mystery.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That doesn't answer Paul's teaching that the middle wall of partition which previously separated the Jewish believers from the Gentile believers was broken down. All you seem to be doing is to prove that maybe only a part of that wall was broken and some of the believing Jews still had a wall still standing which separated the Jewish believers from the Gentile believers.
Please address what Paul said about the middle wall of partition.
Thanks!
Corinthians 3:2 KJV I have fed you with milk,not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Hebrews 5:12 KJV For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Well, old timer, this is probably strong meat for you, and you cannot bear it, choking on it...So, I suggest you stay selling your blenders, staying with just milk....Take your nap, kid, after playing with the kids on the Acts 2 playground.......One of the great giants of mid Acts dispensationalism, sir saint John W., says here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...all-be-saved-even-as-they-quot-Acts-15-11-KJV
Right Divider
Body part
Can you only read a few pet verses from Peter?
1Pet 2:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:11) Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
According to YOU, Peter should NOT be separating Jews and Gentiles.... and yet there it is.
And of course, that comes right after calling THEM a "chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation". Do you even know what Peter is referring to there?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is the following prophecy or mystery?:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
Is the following prophecy or mystery?:
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that. Besides, do you not realize Paul also separated the two groups?
According you your ideas, Paul was not writing to the Body because he separated the two groups.
glorydaz
Well-known member
:first: link
Well geeze, Jerry, that is certainly true for the BOC.
But that is not true of the kingdom gospel that Christ told the 12 to preach that was at their door.
Jesus was telling them to only go to the sheep of Israel and to not go unto the Gentiles.
Even after Jesus ascended with the promise to His disciples of the Holy Spirit, Pentecost was for the kingdom of Israel.
Acts 2:5 KJV
(5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:14 KJV
(14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Acts 2:22 KJV
(22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
I'm not seeing anywhere that Gentiles were allowed in the Holy of Holies of the temple in their teachings.
I see no indication of the temple not still retaining a separate court for Gentiles while Peter, James, John, etc. were preaching their gospel.
The temple was still operating per the law - with separate courts for Jews and Gentiles.
I call the shots here, being a big shot, Mr. Blender Peepers:
You cannot handle the meat, Mr. Peepers, until you understand:
If the mystery was in prophecy, then it ceases to be a mystery.
You blend prophecy, in Hebrews-Rev., with the mystery.
Why Paul? The 12 could do what you say Paul did, as he revealed it to the writers of Hebrews-Revelation, according to you. You assert that the rapture in Romans-Philemon, as revealed by Paul, as part of the mystery,is equivalent to the second coming in Matthew-John, and in Hebrews-Revelation.
So, why was Paul needed, to reveal something that was not a mystery?