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Prophesy, not mystery.
ECT Rightly Dividing MADs
- Thread starter Danoh
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Prophesy, not mystery.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said otherwise but by the time when the Hebrew epistles were written the believing Jews were being baptized into the Body of Christ. And as Paul said, the middle wall of partition which had previously separated the two groups was broken down. And we can see that truth when we looki at Apollos, who at one time was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":
"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).
But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).
Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is the following prophecy or mystery?:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
Is the following prophecy or mystery?:
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).
Come on, big shot!
Prophecy or Mystery?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
By the time when the Hebrew epistles were written their teaching had changed. For instance the Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from the law:
"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).
In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:
"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).
That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:
"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).
If Peter was not using the words "free" and "liberty" in the same sense that Paul used them then he was using them in another sense. In what "sense" might that be?
"Free" from what? "Liberty" from what?
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Hi Jerry and what does " TRADITION FROM YOUR FATHER'S means ??
Whose traditions is Peter talking about , it is Jewish Tradition !!
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, "type" and "anti-type."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Jewish traditions which they were NOT to believe:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
Hi Jerry and from that verse it is speaking about Israel's traditions , easy to see the CONTEXT !!
dan p
Was not Christ one with both of His sheepfolds, even though they were separate of each other?
Yep.
And yet they were separated sheepfolds, not treated as just one sheepfold.
Both sheepfolds were of Israel.
Why were those two different bodies of people (two sheepfolds of Israel) separate from each other and treated differently?
So just because there are sheep in both groups and both groups are of Israel, they are still separate groups from each other that are of Christ.
One shepherd - two different bodies of people.
You are still under the impression that anywhere scripture says body of Christ, it MUST mean the BOC.
That is no more true than saying anywhere that says "sheep" is talking about the same body of people (same sheepfold).
Both the nation of Israel and the BOC are called "church".
But you certainly don't interpret the Israel church and the BOC church as being the same church.
So why are you so narrowly interpreting "body of Christ" that it has to mean the same in every place?
Church is just another word for congregation - a group of people - a BODY of people.
When scripture uses the term "body", unless it is referring to one's own personal physical body, then it is referring to a body of people - ie. a group.
Body of Christ (BOC) when MAD uses the term is in reference to a group (a body of people), and it is not referring to a single individual's own personal physical body.
Christ can have separate bodies of people (separate groups of people).
If it's still not getting through to you, then I will try to think of another way to say it.
It can be good exercise to work on wording my point better in future discussions.
The prophetic program, which deals primarily with the LORD God setting up His Christ, on earth, per Psalms 2:6 KJV, involving the LORD God reclaiming the earth’s governments, from satan, over a kingdom of heaven upon the earth, restoring what was lost in Eden, "as the days of heaven upon the earth"(Deuteronomy 11:21 KJV),as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, as a dictator, with an iron hand, "making good" "the promises made unto the fathers"(Romans 15:8 KJV),to display to all, that He is faithful, keeps His promises, in contrast to man, enacting the New Covenant, on earth, with the believing remnant of the nation Israel, His "elect," not the boc, as they are both physically and spiritually regenerated," in resurrection, "born again," walking in His statutes, as His "kingdom of priests"(Exodus 19:6 KJV, Revelation 1:6 KJV, Revelation 5:10 KJV), His ministers(Isaiah 61:6 KJV), as the head, and not the tail(Deuteronomy 28:13 KJV),all to one end-the glory of God...is not occurring today, as Israel is currently, temporarily, in a stumbled/fallen/cast away/spiritually blind/enemies of God "state"-survey Romans 11. Today,in this dispensation, in the mystery program, the LORD God is forming the church, which is His body(Ephesians 5:23 KJV, Colossians 1:18 KJV, Colossians 1:24 KJV....)of individual believing Jews and believing Gentiles, (survey Ephesians 3:1-11 KJV). The boc is not the believing remnant of the nation Israel, and never will be; it is separate/distinct, and has a different sphere of blessing,the third heaven, "heavenly places." Today,in this dispensation, salvation is going to the Gentiles through the fall of Israel, apart from them as God's channel, vessel, instrument, not through their rise. If the agency at the soul/heart of the prophetic program, the believing remnant of the nation Israel, does not exist before the LORD God today, then the prophetic program itself cannot,will not, and does not operate right now.
The prophetic program, and mystery program cannot exist simultaneously. Thus, one of the main purposes of the "seizure by force"/"plucking out"/"rapture", i.e., making sure that the prophetic program remains unfulfilled, pending completion of the mystery program-survey Romans 11:25-26 KJV. The boc,"the fulness of the Gentiles," must be plucked out, delivered out from this present evil world(Galatians 1:4 KJV), before the LORD resumes His dealings with Israel. The mystery program must be ended, on earth, in order for the LORD God to resume the prophetic program on earth.
Stop the blending...
The prophetic program, and mystery program cannot exist simultaneously. Thus, one of the main purposes of the "seizure by force"/"plucking out"/"rapture", i.e., making sure that the prophetic program remains unfulfilled, pending completion of the mystery program-survey Romans 11:25-26 KJV. The boc,"the fulness of the Gentiles," must be plucked out, delivered out from this present evil world(Galatians 1:4 KJV), before the LORD resumes His dealings with Israel. The mystery program must be ended, on earth, in order for the LORD God to resume the prophetic program on earth.
Stop the blending...
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I call the shots here, being a big shot, Mr. Blender Peepers:
You cannot handle the meat, Mr. Peepers, until you understand:
If the mystery was in prophecy, then it ceases to be a mystery.
You blend prophecy, in Hebrews-Rev., with the mystery.
Why Paul? The 12 could do what you say Paul did, as he revealed it to the writers of Hebrews-Revelation, according to you. You assert that the rapture in Romans-Philemon, as revealed by Paul, as part of the mystery,is equivalent to the second coming in Matthew-John, and in Hebrews-Revelation.
So, why was Paul needed, to reveal something that was not a mystery?
Come on, old man: Are you beating your wife, or your "domestic" partner?
See how that works, you deceitful master of "trap questions," like the idiot Pharisees tried pulling on the Savior. It did not work on Him, and neither does it work on me, admitted sower of discord, among the brethren, who gets banned for such action, on numerous sites.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The words of the Lord Jesus about that were spoken before the Body of Christ even came into existence.
So the Lord was not speaking of one group of Jewish believers belonging to the Body of Christ and another group who were not.
Why don't you believe that the middle wall of partition which separated the Jewish believers from the gentile believers was broken down?
Why do you continue to insist that a part of that wall still stood in the first century despite the fact that Paul said that it was broken down?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course the truth doesn't work on you sonny boy. And that explains why you refused to answer what I said to your following remark:
Is the following prophecy or mystery?:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
Is the following prophecy or mystery?:
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).
You claim to be an expert on the mystery so your refusal to answer my simple questions demonstrates that you are clueless about it.
I call the shots here, being a big shot, Mr. Blender Peepers:
You cannot handle the meat, Mr. Peepers, until you understand:
If the mystery was in prophecy, then it ceases to be a mystery.
You blend prophecy, in Hebrews-Rev., with the mystery.
Why Paul? The 12 could do what you say Paul did, as he revealed it to the writers of Hebrews-Revelation, according to you. You assert that the rapture in Romans-Philemon, as revealed by Paul, as part of the mystery,is equivalent to the second coming in Matthew-John, and in Hebrews-Revelation.
So, why was Paul needed, to reveal something that was not a mystery?
Come on, old man: Are you beating your wife, or your "domestic" partner?
Why do you refuse to answer?
See how that works, you deceitful master of "trap questions," like the idiot Pharisees tried pulling on the Savior. It did not work on Him, and neither does it work on me, admitted sower of discord, among the brethren, who gets banned for such action, on numerous sites.
Is Hebrews-Revelation all "rapture ground," and the second coming, "the second time," described in Matthew-John, and Hebrews-Revelation, identical to the rapture? It all says the same thing, eh?
Why Paul, then?
Why the need for a "secret," Jer? The 12 could have done what Paul did, as you just think he was an Acts 2 flunkie, like yourself, Mr. "it all says the same thing, as the rapture is the same as the second coming" Blender?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at the following words from the pen of the Apostle John where he speaks of an appearance which was not revealed in prophecy:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive and they were expecting that then they would be made like Him. I haven't seen any evidence that when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth that any living believers will be made like Him when He appears. So I can only conclude that John's words can only be in regard to the "mystery" truth found here:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).
Since you consider yourself an expert on the mystery truths and you think that the words of John which I quoted are not in regard to the mystery spoken of by Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:51 then it will be a simple thing for you to show us where in prophecy we find that living saints will put on new bodies like the Lord Jesus' body when He returns to the earth.
Fun, fun and more fun, sonny boy!
I call the shots here, being a big shot, Mr. Blender Peepers:
You cannot handle the meat, Mr. Peepers, until you understand:
If the mystery was in prophecy, then it ceases to be a mystery.
You blend prophecy, in Hebrews-Rev., with the mystery.
Why Paul? The 12 could do what you say Paul did, as he revealed it to the writers of Hebrews-Revelation, according to you. You assert that the rapture in Romans-Philemon, as revealed by Paul, as part of the mystery,is equivalent to the second coming in Matthew-John, and in Hebrews-Revelation.
So, why was Paul needed, to reveal something that was not a mystery?
Come on, old man: Are you beating your wife, or your "domestic" partner?
Why do you refuse to answer?
See how that works, you deceitful master of "trap questions," like the idiot Pharisees tried pulling on the Savior. It did not work on Him, and neither does it work on me, admitted sower of discord, among the brethren, who gets banned for such action, on numerous sites.
Is Hebrews-Revelation all "rapture ground," and the second coming, "the second time," described in Matthew-John, and Hebrews-Revelation, identical to the rapture? It all says the same thing, eh?
Why Paul, then?
Why the need for a "secret," Jer? The 12 could have done what Paul did, as you just think he was an Acts 2 flunkie, like yourself, Mr. "it all says the same thing, as the rapture is the same as the second coming" Blender?
Not a peep, from Mr. Blender, who denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is God.
Acts 2 blender Jer argues that there is no difference between the second coming and the rapture-"it all says the same thing."
Go ahead, Mr. Blender-Deny that you assert that Mt-John, Hebrews-Revelation talks about the mystery/rapture Paul discussed in 1 Cor. 15 ff, and Thessalonians=it is all the same thing-rapture=second coming=same event.
Go ahead, Mr. Peepers, who denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is God.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
By the time when the Hebrew epistles were written their teaching had changed. For instance the Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from the law:
"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).
In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:
"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).
That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:
"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).
If Peter was not using the words "free" and "liberty" in the same sense that Paul used them then he was using them in another sense. In what "sense" might that be?
"Free" from what? "Liberty" from what?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Works plus grace?
Are you not even aware that if it takes works then it cannot be said to be of grace?
You obviously have never believed the gospel of grace because you do not even understand the very basic facts about "grace."
In regard to James, where are the "works" here?:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Works? And how about Peter?:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
Works?
Jer., old man Mr. Blender, sower of discord amongst the brethren, who has been banned from numerous forums, including christianforums.com, for misquoting others, asserts that the Lord Jesus Christ was a man in heaven, before incarnation, and is not God-he is changing his story:
Why do you deny it, satanic accuser?
Why should we believe you, instead of Paul, since you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God?
Why should we believe in your made up theories, Christ rejector, Acts 2 Mr. Blender, re,. the rapture, when you assert that children are identical to the Saviour in "sinlessness:"
Why do you deny it, satanic accuser?
Why should we believe you, instead of Paul, since you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God?
Why should we believe in your made up theories, Christ rejector, Acts 2 Mr. Blender, re,. the rapture, when you assert that children are identical to the Saviour in "sinlessness:"
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that the Lord Jesus is not God. In regard to the other, Sir Robert Anderson explains it much better that I can but his words can only be understood by spiritual Christians so it will be way over your head sonny boy:
"The revelation of the Son of Man will lead the spiritual Christian, who has learned to note the hidden harmony of Scripture, to recall the language of the creation story: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "The type," as the biologist would phrase it, is not the creature of Eden, but He after whose likeness the creature was fashioned. And this suggests the solution of a "mystery." We are but men, and while angels behold the face of God, no man hath seen Him or can see Him. We are "flesh and blood," and "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." And yet as men we are to dwell in heavenly glory; and that wonderful promise shall be fulfilled to us-" They shall see His face...How is this seeming paradox to be explained? "Flesh and blood" are not essential to humanity. True it is that, as "the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same. He assumed "a natural body." "For there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The one pertains to "the first man," who is "of the earth earthy, the other to "the second Man," who is "of heaven." For the Lord from heaven is "Very Man," and it is as Man that He is now upon the throne. But the body is not the man: it is but the tent, the outward dress, as it were, which covers Him. And He is "the same yesterday, and to-day, and for ever " the same who once trod the roads of Galilee and the streets of Jerusalem. He is enthroned as Man, but no longer now in "flesh and blood." For ere He "passed through the heavens" He changed His dress" (Sir Robert Anderson, The Lord From Heaven, p.31-32).
So when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil their hearts starting beating and supplying the body with blood?
Did any other changes happen to their bodies when they ate of the forbidden tree?